23 replies to this topic

[houso44]

Hi,
Im a newby to this forum but I have a great desire to learn more about WW1.
I have a visited my great uncles grave in Potijze Cemetery many times and I have only recently found out that he was originally buried between the road and Ypers-Roulers railway about 1 mile from Zonnebeke. He was killed on 9/11/1917
Does anyone have a map that could show me the approximate position of original burial?
Thanks
Ian from Australia

[Edward1]

I have a NA British Trench map dated 9th Nov 1917 which I would be willing to e-mail if you pm me your e-mail address.
If you have access to Google Earth and search for Frezenberg you can see the Ypres/Roulers railway and the Ypres/Zonnebeke road either side travelling NE until they cross about 2km from Frezenberg. This corridor appears to be the location of your Gt Uncles original burial around Potsdam Farm, the building on Google Earth at 50 52 05 53N 2 57 57 84 E
Eddie

[towisuk]

Hi Ian, welcome to the forum.
A little more detail regarding the map reference for the burial would be helpful (if you have it).
To see what I mean take a look at a previous topic where we were tracing an Australian buried in the same general area, you will see that Phil who posted the request for information was able to get hold of map references for various battlefield burials  Ok it was from a book, but you can see what a difference having some map co-ordinates makes.

http://1914-1918.inv...e

Have a read of the topic, and maybe a quick look at the on-line war diaries from the Australian Memorial for your great uncles Regiment might give you a map reference we can work to,
ie: where they were in the field on the date he died etc....

War diaries.........

http://www.awm.gov.a...n/records/awm4/

regards
Tom

[towisuk]

Meanwhile just to be going on with, here's a map section dated 8/11/17, from the fantastic "Linesman" package........
Tom

[houso44]

Hi, Thanks for all the help.
There wasn't a Battalion history for the 1st Pioneers (that I can find).
From my scant search I believe he was with 'C" coy because his last will and testament was witnessed by some 'C" company men. Thats the only reference I can find with regards to his company. On the day he died 'C' coy was working on Smith Road J3 C 29. At this point in time my map reading is pretty ordinary.
Thanks everyone who have helped me so far. I'ts much appreciated.
Regards
Ian from Oz

[Roger H]

I have marked J.3.C.2.9 on this map - typically, right on the edge.

Roger

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[Roger H]

And Smith Road continuing through square J3 on an extract from the next map.  Somebody better than me might be able to stitch them together.  (Or someone with linesman might be able to post an image showing all of the relevant area in one).  But I hope this helps a bit.

Roger

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[Edward1]

The attached is the approximate location of J3c29 to the left of the picture. The Smith Road is running left to right
Eddie

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[towisuk]

Hope this helps
regards
Tom

[frev]

Hi Ian & welcome to the forum

I'd be interested to know where you got the map reference J3 c 29 from - as The 'Handing over Report' dated 9/11/1917 in the 1st Pioneers War Diary states that: The Westhock-Zonnebeke Road known as Smiths road is under the Battalion for maintenance from J3c39 forward to the Brick Kiln at D27b92. .............

Have you been in touch with the CWGC, as they should have noted in their records, the map reference of where your G/Uncle's body was exhumed from?

Just out of interest - were you aware that two of your G/Uncles mates, who also enlisted in the 2nd reinforcements with him, and were also Boilermakers from Balmain, were part of a party of four mates who went out to retrieve his body later that day.  When reaching the spot, they found out from a Canadian Signalling Platoon that a burial party had already removed his body.  While they were having a yarn (at the entrance of a Pill Box), a shell burst nearby, killing one & wounding two.

Let me know if you haven't followed this line of enquiry and are interested in the details.

Cheers, Frev

[Roger H]

frev, on 10 August 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

I'd be interested to know where you got the map reference J3 c 29 from - as The 'Handing over Report' dated 9/11/1917 in the 1st Pioneers War Diary states that: The Westhock-Zonnebeke Road known as Smiths road is under the Battalion for maintenance from J3c39

Aren't we only talking a distance of about a 100 metres between these two references?

Roger

[houso44]

Hi Fev,
I didn't know any of that information was available. Im very new to all this detailed research stuff.  
I knew my grandfather (1st Battn.) went looking for the grave (when he had some leave). My great uncles mother never accepted his death and always expected (like countless other mothers) that he would knock on the door someday.

With regards to the map reference I found that from the battalion history as well.

As a matter of interest; for reasons known only to himself he inlisted as Frederick Thomas CARMARSH. I noticed that the R was crossed out in his offical records. When I went to Ieper in 2004 his headstone was F.T CARMARSH. I wrote to the CWGC and they eventually changed the headstone to the correct spelling. His name was always spelt correct in War Memorial Canberra.

I would appreciate any help in pointing me to the info about my great uncles friends and the other info as well.

Thanks
Ian

[Roger H]

And thanks to everyone who supplied maps? Sometimes I wonder why I bother.

Roger

[houso44]

Im terribly sorry Roger. I do apprecitaes everyones help in this matter. I thaked everyone previously for their help. Ive omitted you...my apologies.
Ian

[Roger H]

Ian

Don't worry - I was just having a grumpy old man moment! And my message came across harsher than I intended.  Keep asking the questions, don't let me put you off!

Roger

[frev]

Roger H, on 10 August 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Aren't we only talking a distance of about a 100 metres between these two references?

Roger

Beats me - I'm hopeless at map reading!
Was only concerned that you may have been trying to pinpoint the wrong place....
Cheers, Frev

[frev]

houso44, on 11 August 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

I would appreciate any help in pointing me to the info about my great uncles friends and the other info as well.

Ian - the following are the notes I made when I was having a look at this:


CAMARSH, Frederick Thomas – Pte 1829, 1^st Pioneers (2^nd R)
KIA 9/11/1917 – buried Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery, Belgium
Boilermaker – from Balmain, NSW
Joined 1/2/16 – oath taken Casula 14/2/1916

Four of his Pioneer mates went out later in the day to bring in his body – Pte C. Fauvel (C Coy), Pte J. White, Cpl Samuels & H.A. Campbell (C Coy – MG Sect).  When they arrived at the spot where he’d been killed, they found out from a Canadian Signalling Platoon that a burial party had already removed his body.  While they were having a yarn (at the entrance of a Pill Box), a shell burst nearby, killing Campbell & wounding Fauvel & White.

[See Campbell’s Red Cross Files (p.5) – for details on the 4 going out to retrieve Camarsh’s body]
http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/wounded_and_missing/person.asp?p=608224


Both Fauvel & White survived the war & entered an ‘In Memoriam’ notice for their mate Camarsh:

The Sydney Morning Herald, Sat 9 Nov 1918:
IN MEMORIAM
On Active Service
CAMARSH – In loving memory of our dear pal, Fred Camarsh, 1^st Pioneer Battalion, killed in action at Zonnebeke, November 9, 1917.  A soldier a true pal.  Inserted by his two returned pals, C. Fauvel and J. White.


C Coy – Smiths Rd – J3 C 29 (?):
The ‘Handing Over Report’ for the 9/11/1917 in the 1^st Pioneers War Diary states that: The Westhock-Zonnebeke Road known as Smiths road is under the Battalion for maintenance from J3c39 forward to the Brick Kiln at D27b92.  ……………..


Henry Albert Campbell, Pte 2082, 1^st Pioneers (3^rd Rfts – C Coy – MG Sect)
Joined 16/2/1916 – oath taken Maitland 30/3/1916
KIA 9/11/1917 Belgium (Menin Gate Memorial)
[Boer War Vet, Stockman, from Maitland, NSW – his brother Capt JF Campbell KIA Gallipoli]


Charles Francis Fauvel, Pte 1841, 1^st Pioneers (2^nd R – C Coy)
Boilermaker – Wife’s address: Balmain, NSW
Enlisted Casula 15/2/1916
Wounded 9/11/1917

James Thomas White, 1931, 1^st Pioneers (2^nd R)
Boilermaker – Balmain, NSW
Enlisted Casula, NSW 8/2/1916
Wounded 9/11/1917


Cpl Samuels (?)
Fred Stanley Samuels, 4624, 1^st Pioneers – Plasterer – Enlisted Casula, NSW 25/11/1915, 4^th Bn – joined the 1^st Pioneers 8/6/16 – to be L/Cpl 24/11/17 (reverted to Pte 2/5/18) – RTA 1919


Best of luck in your research
Cheers, Frev

[Neil Mackenzie]

If anyone has ever come across a reference to where the 'Kit & Kat track' used to run I would love to know. It was very near the Ypres-Roulers line and I know where the bunkers of that name were but not where the track was.

Cheers

Neil

[Edward1]

A contender for Kit Kat Track could be the track on the attached running through J2c&d and joining Smith Road to J3c2.9

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[Neil Mackenzie]

Thanks Edward - do you have a larger version that you could email me as some of there reference points you mention do not appear on the cut down version above?

Many thanks

Neil

[Roger H]

Neil

I think Edward means this track that I have underlined in green

Roger

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[Neil Mackenzie]

Cheers Roger

[houso44]

Thanks everyone who has helped me so far.

Fev, Im interested to know how you made a connection between Camarsh to Campbell.
I have tried to work it our but can't.
Nothing beats experience I guess.
Cheers
Ian

[frev]

Hi Ian

Yes, I guess it's just habit from years of research - I simply checked the AWM Roll of Honour to see if any other members of the 1st Pioneers died that day, and sure enough Campbell did - and with no known grave, I therefore had a look for a Red Cross Wounded & Missing file..............

Cheers, Frev