11 replies to this topic

[Roger H]

Can some expert tell me what all these markings mean?  Thanks

Roger

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[TonyE]

Canadian 18 Pr. Mark II case made by the Metal Drawing Co., St.Catherine's, Ontario (MDCo) in 1917. The three letter code (IQW?) below that is the lot code but the exact meaning has never been found.

It was filled by Kynoch Birmingham (K) on 30 June 1917 and has been filled once with a full cordite charge (CF). The Broad Arrow within "C" is the Canadian government property mark.

The No.1 Mark II primer is also Canadian and if the letters are "CGE" then it was made by Canadian Allis Chalmers Ltd.

Regards
TonyE

[Roger H]

Blimey Tony.  You don't know the name of the person who filled it with cordite by any chance?! thanks very much.

Roger

[Peter Zieminski]

Tony

Williamson's Guide notes that the Filling Station Monogram 'K' denotes Kingston, Canada - could this be more in keeping with the fact that this is a Canadian shell case?

[TonyE]

I am not going to say that is wrong, but I am working from the original 1916  Ministry of Munitions "List of Stores Inspected by D.I.G.A (S) and D.I.M.A giving Trade Marks and Initials of Firms" which includes Great britain, America, Canada and India..

"K" has been used by Kynoch ever since they started making ammunition in the 19th century and they filled huge numbers of shell during WWI. Many of the Canadian shell cases were delivered to the UK empty and were filled here either by private contractors such as Kynoch or government facilities like the National Filling Factories.

Does Mr. Wiliamson give any indication what or who "Kingston" is? For example, is it a company, government facility or place? I have not come across it before, but that does not mean a lot!

There is no "Kingston" in my Min.of Mun. list but it only goes up to 1916 and the above case is dated 1917.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Regards
TonyE

PS Roger - His name was Fred and he had a cheese sandwich for lunch that day.

[Peter Zieminski]

Hi Tony

Wiliamson cites the list  of Filling Station Monograms in which it appears as being taken from "The Marking of Ammunition 1918" - unfortunately there is nothing further by way of a clue as to what or where Kingston is - the list is a mix of countries and places - that said there is an Armoury (now a military museum) in Kingston Ontario.

[TonyE]

OK. I have checked my copy of that manual, actually "Explanatory List of Service Markings 1918" and on Page 56 there is the list of Station Monograms and Initials including "K" for Kingston, Canada. These are not filling stations, and nowhere does the manual give them that title. They are ammunition stations or issuing depots and the initials would be found on ammunition packaging or possibly re-packs and the like.

An example in that list is Woolwich, which as a depot has the monogram "W", but the Royal Arsenal that actually filled ammunition used the monogram "RL". A number of them are naval ammunition depots also, for example Pembroke, Priddy's Hard, Portsmouth, Crombie (for Rosyth) etc.

Regards
TonyE

[Peter Zieminski]

Hi Tony

Thank you for resolving the entry - Look's like the title used in Williamson may need amending

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•  shell list.jpg   154.39K   5 downloads

[Siege Gunner]

TonyE, on 10 August 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

His name was Fred and he had a cheese sandwich for lunch that day.

What sort of cheese ...?

[TonyE]

Siege Gunner, on 10 August 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

What sort of cheese ...?

Why, Cheddite cheese of course!

(Groan)

Regards
TonyE

[auchonvillerssomme]

I have asked this question before but not had a satisfactory answer, the markings are for shell filling stations stamped on shells, the markings we always talk about are case markings, so were they filled at the same stations and marked the same way?
I have a case marked KY which isn't on the list. Personally I have never seen the majority of those marks, and I have handled more than a few.

[TonyE]

It is a intriguing question. These stations may have started out as shell filling stations in the 19th Century but I cannot believe they were ALL filling shell in WWI.

Shell filling was not a simple task by then. Was there really a shell filling station in Hyde Park? I can understand an ammunition depot as once filled but not fuzed shells are fairly safe, but a factory with large quantities of free explosive? . Similarly, look at the geographic spread around the world, some for the army and others obviously for the Royal Navy. Was the technology available there to fill shell?

I suspect many were more likely to have been cartridge filling stations for bagged charges rather than shell. An example on a much smaller scale is that of "J" for Jamaica station. Packets of paper cartridges for the Pattern 53 muzzle loader are known with the "J" stamp as the manufacturer. Although these bagged charges were quite complex, actually making them up was relatively low tech. Cordite is very stable and could have been delivered to magazines in bulk and then cut  and filled in the linen bags. Local labour with specialised sewing machines could do this work.

Another point is that the history of the Ministry of Munitions  talks in great detail about filling factories but makes no mention of these as shell filling stations.

I have no firm evidence for the above and would be pleased to hear others thoughts.

Regards
TonyE