15 replies to this topic

[Lizzielogs]

Hi,
Could anyone help me please.
I have had my Grandfather's RNAS records sent from the National Archives but don't know if they give me anything more than I had before.
On the left of the document it looks as though he enlisted 31 August 1915 (Man Service) and the 'Duration of Period od Engagement' reads DW - I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that means 'duration of the war' ???
On 1st July 1919 he went from Westgate to 212 squadron and/ or 219 squadron. Could anyone give me a bit more information regarding either of these?
Also on his records in red pen it says 'Volunteered for F of O 219 Sq/ 12  13.3.19 what does that mean?
Also (sorry about all these questions!) on his promotions it records him as Air Mechanic August 1915, Air Mechanic IRH June 1917, Air Mechanic IRH © December 1917, Head Mechanic RH © February 1918 then lastlu Transferred RAF Cpl Mech April 1918. I understand what the words say buy could anyone pad out the information for me please?
I understand Westgate (where he met my Gran) was a shorebased posting, does the information above suggest he ever flew anywhere or as a mechanic would he have always been on the ground?
My Grandfather has always been a bit of a mystery as he left my Gran with my Dad when my Dad was about 7 and went to New Zealand and lived in a Maori environment. I only met him once when I was about 10 and I was scared to death of him! If I could only have that time again I would pay more attention!
Last bit of info
Transferred to RAF reserve Chingford 24.2.20
Discharge 30.4.20 Above the word 'Discharge' it looks as though 'deemed' is written in pen and a 'd' tacked onto the word 'discharge' . If indeed that reads 'Deemed Discharged' is that a normal thing?

Thanks for reading
Lizzielogs

[David Underdown]

I should think F of O is Forces of Occupation or something similar.

I think Deemed Discharged would be fairly normal, foten men were put into one reserve or another just in case the situation changed, and then the whole section of the reserve were dishcarged en bloc.

The RAF was formed on 1 April 1918, all RNAS personnel were transferred to the new service at that time - he'll also have an RAF record in AIR 79 which may have a little more detail (though possibly this is what you actually have, as I wouldn't expect anymore records on his RN record after transfer).

What was his name and service number?

[Errol Martyn]

Lizzie,

There was a book published about Westgate by Geoffrey Williams, called Wings Over Westgate: The Story Of A Front Line Naval Air Station During World War One, though I'm not sure if it cover the 1919 period. Some pre-loved copies available via bookfinder.com

212 Sqn at the time was at Swingate Down but 219 Sqn was based at Westgate.

Air Mechanic and Corporal Mechanic were ranks and not necessarily indicative of an airman's trade. Their were three classes of the former, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Might your 'IRH' and RH' be a misinterpretation of these terms? I've not come across a rank of Head Mechanic before, though it may well have existed.

As a New Zealander, I am intrigued by the New Zealand and Maori connection. What was grandfather's name?

Errol

[Lizzielogs]

David Underdown, on 20 August 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

I should think F of O is Forces of Occupation or something similar.

I think Deemed Discharged would be fairly normal, foten men were put into one reserve or another just in case the situation changed, and then the whole section of the reserve were dishcarged en bloc.

The RAF was formed on 1 April 1918, all RNAS personnel were transferred to the new service at that time - he'll also have an RAF record in AIR 79 which may have a little more detail (though possibly this is what you actually have, as I wouldn't expect anymore records on his RN record after transfer).

What was his name and service number?

Hi David,
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

AIR 79/ 1871 is what I have in my hands (at terrifying cost!!!) His name was Charles Henry HAND and his service number was 208075.

Any more information would be wonderful.

Thanks again
Lizzielogs

[Lizzielogs]

Errol Martyn, on 20 August 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Lizzie,

There was a book published about Westgate by Geoffrey Williams, called Wings Over Westgate: The Story Of A Front Line Naval Air Station During World War One, though I'm not sure if it cover the 1919 period. Some pre-loved copies available via bookfinder.com

212 Sqn at the time was at Swingate Down but 219 Sqn was based at Westgate.

Air Mechanic and Corporal Mechanic were ranks and not necessarily indicative of an airman's trade. Their were three classes of the former, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Might your 'IRH' and RH' be a misinterpretation of these terms? I've not come across a rank of Head Mechanic before, though it may well have existed.

As a New Zealander, I am intrigued by the New Zealand and Maori connection. What was grandfather's name?

Errol

Hi Errol,

Also many thanks to you for taking the time to reply.
You are quite right, I have misread the info on the AIR 79 and what it actually reads is Air Mech 1 RH, Air Mech 1 RH © and Lead (not Head) Mech RH ©, does that make mores sense to you?

I'll do a bit of research into the Wings over Westgate book and even if it doesn't cover the period I will buy it as our family originate form that area.

My Grandad (Charles Henry HAND) was born in Nottingham in 1892 and I could never figure out how he cane to marry my Gran at the other end of the country 'till I found the WW1 records and realised he was posted to Westgate on Sea which is where my Gran's family were from.
They were married and had my Dad and then when my Dad was young he went to New Zealand and never came back. My Mum tells me my Gran always used to say that he said he would send for her and she joked 'He's a bloody long time writing'. I don't actually think she ever thought she would ever lay eyes on him again until he turned up in Margate (where my Dad had a pub) in the early 60's. No one was pleased to see him so he hung around for about 10 days and realised he had overstayed his welcome and went back to Nottingham, there to return to New Zealand where he died in the Auckland Hospital in December 1970  He went on to have a further son in New Zealand with a lady called Irene Johnson and at the time of his death he lived in Whangarei. The Maori thing might be a bit of a family 'story' but he came to us in the 60's with traditional carved Maori boxes which in hindsight he might have bought anywhere.
He is a bit on an enigma as he had a son with the very same name as my father (the boy he left behind) and that son went on to have family who I have tried to contact but don't seem to want any connection with me.

Many regards
Trudi

[David Underdown]

Right, he also has a naval record under his original number of F2085 (RNAS ratings were given a new RAF number by dropping the F and adding a leading 2 and as many zeroes as necessary to make the number up to 6 figures).  You can download it from http://discovery.nat...ls?uri=D6806259 (for a rather smaller fee).  Probably won't add that much more, but you never know

[Lizzielogs]

David Underdown, on 21 August 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Right, he also has a naval record under his original number of F2085 (RNAS ratings were given a new RAF number by dropping the F and adding a leading 2 and as many zeroes as necessary to make the number up to 6 figures).  You can download it from http://discovery.nat...ls?uri=D6806259 (for a rather smaller fee).  Probably won't add that much more, but you never know

Thanks David I actually have that one and it lists his service at/ on President 11 and Daedalus which I believe were shore based at Manston and / or Westgate on Sea.

Regards
Lizzielogs

[horatio2]

His original RNAS record is under the number F.8075 (not 2085). HMS PRESIDENT II and HMS DAEDALUS were merely pay offices that handled RNAS accounts. He probably never visited them. They are quite distinct from the air stations where he actually served and they are not co-located.

[Lizzielogs]

Thanks Horatio2 however he must have been in the Westgate/ Manston areas as his bride to be, my Gran, was born and bred in Westgate and I remember her saying they went to dances at Manston.
What I don't understand is the relationship to him being in the RNAS based in Thanet, Kent and the fact that he upped and offed to New Zealand!

Regards Lizzielogs

[horatio2]

Probably no relationship at all since he seem to have pushed off to New Zealand long after the RNAS ceased to exist in April 1918.

[Lizzielogs]

horatio2, on 21 August 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Probably no relationship at all since he seem to have pushed off to New Zealand long after the RNAS ceased to exist in April 1918.

*sigh* Unfortunately I think you are right!

[David Underdown]

horatio2, on 21 August 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

His original RNAS record is under the number F.8075 (not 2085). HMS PRESIDENT II and HMS DAEDALUS were merely pay offices that handled RNAS accounts. He probably never visited them. They are quite distinct from the air stations where he actually served and they are not co-located.

I'd identified the correct record, it is for F8075 - just completely mistyped the number in my post somehow!

[Errol Martyn]

Trudi,

There is a 1940 newspaper reference here to a 'C. H. Hand' of Whangarei - possibly the son?

http://paperspast.na...on--2c. h. hand--

Whangarei, incidentally, is in the north of New Zealand, where Maori are strongly represented.

Errol

[Errol Martyn]

Lizzielogs, on 21 August 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Thanks Horatio2 however he must have been in the Westgate/ Manston areas as his bride to be, my Gran, was born and bred in Westgate and I remember her saying they went to dances at Manston.
What I don't understand is the relationship to him being in the RNAS based in Thanet, Kent and the fact that he upped and offed to New Zealand!

Regards Lizzielogs

Trudi,

Revisiting my source for 219 Sqn details, I see now that it was made up of five flights.

Nos 406 and 442 were at Westgate equipped with seaplanes.

Nos 470, 555 & 556 were in Kent based at Manston and equipped with landplanes. (Your 'Thanet' connection?)

There were also detachments of the squadron at Bacton and Burgh Castle, but during what dates is not clear.

Errol

[Lizzielogs]

Errol Martyn, on 21 August 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Trudi,

There is a 1940 newspaper reference here to a 'C. H. Hand' of Whangarei - possibly the son?

http://paperspast.na...on--2c. h. hand--

Whangarei, incidentally, is in the north of New Zealand, where Maori are strongly represented.

Errol

Hi Errol

How strange is that? Probably not my grandfather as he would have been  too old as he was born 1893 and the son's initials were J.M. hand. However when I researched his death, this burial in the Auckland records were confused as there were two C.H, Hands who died around the same time and one was in a soldiers grave which must have been this C.H. Hand.

There is living family which I am sure I am not allowed to post about on here so will send you a PM in the next couple of days.

Regards Trudi

[Lizzielogs]

Errol Martyn, on 21 August 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Trudi,

Revisiting my source for 219 Sqn details, I see now that it was made up of five flights.

Nos 406 and 442 were at Westgate equipped with seaplanes.

Nos 470, 555 & 556 were in Kent based at Manston and equipped with landplanes. (Your 'Thanet' connection?)

There were also detachments of the squadron at Bacton and Burgh Castle, but during what dates is not clear.

Errol

Again thanks Errol, Manston and Westgate are very close, only about 8 miles apart so definately the area for a serviceman to court a local girl!