39 replies to this topic

[BeppoSapone]

I also have a question about what Mr. Coogan describes as: "Landlordism"

What exactly is this bizarre word? I understand that the British owned most property in Ireland by landlord groups but what was it exactly?

-Doughboy

Define your terms. What do you mean by "British"?

Are you including the Anglo-Irish Ascendancy in this? Some of those "British" people have lived in Ireland since not long after "Strongbow" landed.

Also, a lot of people in the north of Ireland have been in Ulster longer than most Americans have been in America. These people are what you term "Scotch-Irish".

[Chris_Baker]

Keep this thread on track, members. A discussion on Michael Collins as an important figure in the Great War era was the request.

[NIGEL]

I think that Doughboy because of where he is and because of what is portrayed by some of Ireland and Britain is genuinley trying to ask questions about what he knows and maybe reading but doesnt mean to upset or stray from the point of the history of that time.

[GWRCo]

Hi all!

As you all know, there are many publications on Michael Collins, but what i would like to see is the stuff thats still kept under lock and key!

Me being British/English, and my partner being Irish, do have a few dingdongs, especially when she gets on her soapbox!!  She has family north and south of the border, and we do visit Dublin so see her family there, as well as the others in Belfast. The main cemetry in Dublin is fantastic, and well worth a visit. Myself, i have family from Cork!

Speaking with my partners family, her grandfather served as a medically down- graded officer who was based in the south, and was one of many who chased after Eamon de Valera - shortly before capturing him, my partners granfather was shot in the face by one of Valera's men, so he was not a happy budgie!

Though we live in Northern Ireland, there is so much history to see and visit, the North is friendly, and has much to offer, but unfortunately, the minority spoil it for the majority. Every time i've been down to the South of Ireland, we have always found people to be friendly. Of course there are those who are a minority again, but you get that anywhere in the world.

In the irish army museum at i believe 'the curragh' , they have one of the few surviving original Rolls Royce armoured cars there in full running order, whilst in the north, at the Somme Heritage Centre just outside Newtownards, they have the replica Rolls Royce armoured car which was used in the film 'Michael Collins'. This was recently completely overhauled, and put back in working order by a Territorial Army REME unit in Belfast.

Kind regards,

Tim W

[Auimfo]

Like Doughboy, I am somewhat removed from this subject (being an Australian)  relying pretty much what is related through the media.   Unless you have a general understanding of the political nuances etc, it all becomes quite confusing as to who's who and what side their on. (if side's exist)

Having recently researched my ancestors and discovered I have English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish blood through my family (My family name is Lycett which derives from Lysaght whom I believe stem from irish kings - at least that's what I'm told) and I have become more interested in the history.

Can we come to some agreement here and perhaps suggest a text that is considered unbiased, yet faithful to the truth.   Does such a definitive text exist so people with a newly aquired interest in this period of Irish history (such as Doughboy and I) can broaden their understanding in an impartial way.

Tim L.

[Desmond7]

Johnathon Bardon's History of Ulster is IMHO and many others, the definitive history of my art of the world. Strongly recommended, highly readable. Believe there is also a slimmed down 'coffee table version' with more pics/maps/illustrations.

Wonderful book to own - great to borrow from the library!Follow the link for more ...


http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...4470797-3651050

Best wishes
Des

[Viola]

Can we come to some agreement here and perhaps suggest a text that is considered unbiased, yet faithful to the truth.   Does such a definitive text exist so people with a newly aquired interest in this period of Irish history (such as Doughboy and I) can broaden their understanding in an impartial way.

Tim L.

To be honest, I'm not so sure there is such a text. That period in history can still be a little ... um ... controversial in this part of the world (I'm in Dublin).

I can say that F.S.L. Lyons' "Ireland since the Famine" was one of our core books when I studied Irish history at school and I found it fairly balanced (although at 17, I'm not sure how attuned my 'bias-sensors' were). As far as I know it gets updated every few years.

I know there were a few other books that we used, I'll have to see if I can dredge them up from my brain.

-- Viola

[johng]

Doughboy,

there are as many opinions about Micheal Collins as there are authors of books about him.

A condensed picture of his life (and death) can be found in a paperback book by Meda Ryan.  The title is: "The day Micheal Collins was shot".  It was published by POOLBEG PRESS LTD.  in 1989.
The catalogue record is ISBN I 85371 041 5.

I recommend this book because the documentary evidence and the personal statements of his contempories is simple and clear.

The I.R.B. was a secret society which Collins joined in 1909, he was nineteen years old.

He became Commander in Chief of the Irish National Army after the outbreak of the civil war between the Pro-Treaty and Anti-Treaty forces in the Republic.

Enjoy your reading,  Johng

[Joy Lynch]

[B]There is a reasonably good film on Michael Collins fairly recently made, which has been on the T.V. in Britain , Ireland, and I am sure internationally.
Some doubt about the 'killing' of Collins remains ! There were rumours, even, that it was De Valera and co.!

[Viola]

[B]There is a reasonably good film on Michael Collins fairly recently made, which has been on the T.V. in Britain , Ireland, and I am sure internationally.
Some doubt about the 'killing' of Collins remains ! There were rumours, even, that it was De Valera and co.!

Josephine,

If it's the Liam Neeson film that you are refering to, it actually has quite a lot of inaccuracies. It came out in the cinema the year I finished school, and one of our history projects was to discuss all the things they got wrong  

I wonder if I still have the list somewhere....

That said, it actually isn't a bad introduction to the life of Collins and the politics etc of the era.

The 'rumour' that Dev killed Collins has been pretty much disproved. Of course, it would have been 'Dev's forces' who killed Collins as there were on opposing sides of the Civil War.

-- Viola

[armourersergeant]

I think you can only look at this subject in the phrase 'one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'

You have to consider if the British would have listened to Collins and the others if they had not raised arms and did what they did. If you beleive they would not have then you have to conceed that what he did was correct!

I went to see where Micheal Collins was shot and later died. It is to my knowledge very sinilar to how it would have been the day it happen, apart obviously from the memorium that now stands there. Also I went to where he lived that is now a open air 'museum' Whilst in Dublin I looked in vain for the Post offfice of 1916 fame until i realsied it was at the side of me and i had walked past it many times whilst looking for it!!! Der.

I will try and sift out the pics i took and post them later.

I have read the book 'the day Micheal Collins Died' and found it a good small read and would recommend. I have seen the Film and whilst i liked it i doubt it is accurate but does set the scene. having been duped by JFK and beleiving this to be fairly accurate I now do not beleive any film that pertains to be fact!!!!!

Collins is a complicated issue full of anger and some justified comtempt, but I have to say that i can not help admiring what he achieved and what he attempted to do. He was certainly in my opinion the creator of the urban gorilla of modern times.

Whilst in Ireland I found the atmosphere to be great and friendly and would say the majority of Irish and brits get on well together. Though whilst we sat in a small of beat Pub some songs were sung and my wife asked why i was tensing!! Why says i , because they are 'Irish Songs' and we are Brits. But the atmosphere was melancholic not vengeful.

regards
Arm.

[Arnie]

Can I recomend the BBCs History web site there is a series of articles regarding the  'troubles'



http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/easterris...ude/index.shtml

Arnie

[Joy Lynch]

To Doughboy  -etc

I am sorry but I missed the query about the film on Michael Collins which has since been answered in a sense. This was not a documentary but a film based on fact which was nevertheless a bit fictional in places. It has been received as being fairly authentic. I am sure it is by now available on video. A friend of our family played the violin for a very brief time to a poignant tune.
I enjoyed the film but can accept that there are some inaccuracies.
On  THE Google research site, there is a fairly adequate biographical text on Michael Collins which gives most well known facts. I got this through a simple search with the name ..Michael Collins.. .

Apparently there is a book also recommended.....Michael Collins..by John McKay.
I have not read Tim Pat Coogan or McKay's book as yet, but your 'thread' on the web has stimulated me to renew any little knowledge I have.
I have not as yet come across references to sad events as described ''above'
in the photocopied article on The Altnaveigh atrocities, but am endeavouring to find sources. Most libraries in England and Ireland have extensive resources in Irish History.
The 'thread' on Michael Collins is proving to be very interesting re political history .

[Joy Lynch]

Doughboy,

[B] Continuing comments re books relevant to your enquiry,


I came across another book by Tim Pat Coogan entitled !Ireland in the Twenthieth Century " which has useful cross-referencing about the period in which you are interested. I have not read it, only browsed through it so far. It is a big 'tome' , well bibliographed,perhaps too much, but i could not yet comment on the 'slant;
taken in general. Some extracts I noticed were rightly critical of individuals involved on both sides. I got the impression in earlier comments on this thread, that the author could be...leaning to one side !