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Turkish seaplane?


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#1 pete-c

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 07:43 AM

HMS Ark Royal, ships log, August 14th, 1916. 'Damaged Turkish seaplane received alongside'. Would anyone have any details of make and type, or any other info ?

#2 michaeldr

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:11 AM

Pete,

By August 14th, 1916 the Ark Royal was no longer involved in Gallipoli or the Dardanelles
On 8th November 1915 she had arrived at Salonika
Perhaps someone on the Salonika & Balkans sub-section can help you

Good luck
Michael

#3 Bryn

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:20 AM

According to an article in Cross and Cockade Journal, the German company Gotha delivered thirty-four seaplanes direct to the Turkish government, and others reached Turkey via the German Navy Air service. Those sent in early 1916 appear to have been WD2 models. There’s a good photo of one in Turkish markings on the cover (reference below), with the following information on the inside cover:
Gotha WD 2 (Fabrik No. 510) was ordered on 6 January 1916 by the Reichs Marine Amt in Berlin for the Turkish government. It was powered by a 160 H.P. Mercedes D.III engine and delivered on 22 March 1916 without wheels, mounted on floats.

[Cross and Cockade Journal: Society of World War 1 Aero Historians, Manhattan Beach, California, Summer 1970]

#4 centurion

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:37 AM

Photos indicate that WD 1 and 2 were both used. In addition two Nieuport Hydros were attached to the flying school but were occasionally used for active patrols. The Gotha WD 1 and 2 were developments of the Avro 503

#5 horatio2

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:46 AM

Pete,

By August 14th, 1916 the Ark Royal was no longer involved in Gallipoli or the Dardanelles
On 8th November 1915 she had arrived at Salonika
Perhaps someone on the Salonika & Balkans sub-section can help you

Good luck
Michael

Michael
ARK left Salonika and was back at Mudros on 16 March 1916. On 27 March (at Port Mudros) she also "Received on board Enemy Seaplane 536 from Stavros base." Probably the same plane damaged in August.
ARK remained at Port Mudros until April 1918.
Edit: The aircraft was a Friedrichshafen FF.33F, Ser.536 "Captured intact at Gallipoli, was flown for a time from the seaplane carrier HMS ARK ROYAL" - Source RN Aircraft Serials and Units" (Sturtivant and Page) p. 426 (photograph)

Edited by horatio2, 31 July 2013 - 09:54 AM.


#6 michaeldr

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:02 AM

H2

Noted, with thanks for that correction
Some time soon I must buy the rest of the Naval OH, beyond Vol.III :blink:

all the best
Michael

#7 centurion

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:29 AM

Michael
ARK left Salonika and was back at Mudros on 16 March 1916. On 27 March (at Port Mudros) she also "Received on board Enemy Seaplane 536 from Stavros base." Probably the same plane damaged in August.
ARK remained at Port Mudros until April 1918.
Edit: The aircraft was a Friedrichshafen FF.33F, Ser.536 "Captured intact at Gallipoli, was flown for a time from the seaplane carrier HMS ARK ROYAL" - Source RN Aircraft Serials and Units" (Sturtivant and Page) p. 426 (photograph)


A very rare bird indeed then as only 5 FF33f s were built it being quickly superseded by the FF33h. How did this fighter patrol version get to Gallipoli and how was it captured?

#8 pete-c

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:30 AM

Thanks all. Michael, it was a toss up between the two, I thought i'd start with Gallipoli. Bryn and Centurion, thanks for the info on types. Horatio, I also did think that maybe the two machines could be one and the same. However the FF 33 was definitely captured intact, and also carried German markings so i'm pretty sure that this is not the same machine. There is a photo on-line, http://www.directart...ges/mpl0687.jpg showing the 'damaged' machine on Ark Royal's deck. I think the word is mis-used in this case! Pete.

#9 centurion

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:37 AM

I think that's the remains of one of the Gothas supplied to Turkey as some of these were fitted with a machine gun ring over the front cockpit so that the observer could stand up and fire over the propeller.

#10 pete-c

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:56 AM

I think that's the remains of one of the Gothas supplied to Turkey as some of these were fitted with a machine gun ring over the front cockpit so that the observer could stand up and fire over the propeller.

I think you may have cracked it! Just been Googling and found a picture of a Gotha WD2, and this looks like the one. The machine gun ring above the observers position gives it away. Many thanks.

#11 michaeldr

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:43 AM

As you will probably have noticed, most of my research material ends in early 1916 :whistle:

However, there are some photographs and information, which may be of interest, to be seen here
http://www.turkeyswa...rafts-gotha.htm

re the WD 2: these three were lost at the end of November 1915, and probably out of reach of the Allies
re the WD 12: as far as I can tell, only two of these aircraft were retained in the Gallipoli area after January 1916 – it could perhaps be one of these?

#12 centurion

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:49 AM

According to Grey and Thetford the WD 12 was unarmed. The rear fuselage looks the wrong shape as well.

#13 michaeldr

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:22 PM

If it was one of the three WD 2s, then they did well to find it after so many months, and so far into the Sea of Mamara
Apparently, 287 was forced to land and destroyed at Tekridag on 29 Nov 1915
then 289 went to look for it and was also forced to land on 31 Nov 1915
then 286 was destroyed during the search for 289 on 31 Nov 1915

Is there a record of the Turks recovering 289 after November 1915 and then using it again?


edit to answer; No - this plane was too damaged to repair
details from Nikolasen & Yilmazer, who also say that the WD12 supplied to Turkey were armed

Edited by michaeldr, 31 July 2013 - 12:41 PM.


#14 centurion

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 02:07 PM

The 1916 log in Mudros harbour has two entries "Damaged Turkish sea plane received alongside" and later on the same page " "Damaged Turkish sea plane secured alongside" [my italics] The photo in the link which appears elsewhere on the web has a title that includes the word wrecked and the date 1915 so two different events and two different sea planes. The following photo (from Wiki commons and out of copyright) shows very clearly the gun ring on the Gotha WD2 which is the same as that on the wrecked aircraft
Attached File  ottos2.jpg   223.54KB   1 downloads

#15 horatio2

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 02:18 PM

The 1916 log in Mudros harbour has two entries "Damaged Turkish sea plane received alongside" and later on the same page " "Damaged Turkish sea plane secured alongside" [my italics]

That is, indeed, the transcription. The original log page does not have the "secured" entry

#16 centurion

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 02:53 PM

Odd there are a number of semi duplicate entries in the transcription and also items missing

Nevertheless it would still seem that we have two seaplanes and two dates one in 1915 and one in 1916 and the 1915 one definitely looks like a Gotha

#17 pete-c

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:21 PM

It does indeed seem likely that the machine in the photo is a WD2, and the one mentioned in the log is probably one the WD12's. So far I have yet to find any further mention of this machine in Ark Royal's log.

The reason for the 'duplications' is because there is sometimes more than one trans-scriber working on the logs, therefore there will be corrections and differences in interpretation.

Many thanks everyone. Pete.

#18 centurion

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:15 PM

I've seen it suggested that the Turkish WD12 s operated over the Black Sea. If so it's difficult to see how one arrives at Ark Royal in 1916

#19 michaeldr

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:23 PM

I've seen it suggested that the Turkish WD12 s operated over the Black Sea. If so it's difficult to see how one arrives at Ark Royal in 1916

re the WD 12: as far as I can tell, only two of these aircraft were retained in the Gallipoli area after January 1916 – it could perhaps be one of these?


Are you looking for a WD 12 over the Black Sea in 1916?
Was it the third WD 12?
Later in 1916, did the two which were retained on Gallipoli in January, move east?

Edited by michaeldr, 31 July 2013 - 04:29 PM.


#20 Bryn

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 08:32 PM

Here's the photo of the WD2 I mentioned previously:

Posted Image

Source: Cross and Cockade Journal Vol 11 No. 3 Autumn 1970.



#21 Bryn

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:22 AM

This may also be of interest, concerning the allies in1916:
'The Ark Royal was a repair ship at Mudros. The balloon ships, Hector and Canning, had returned to England in May. The French Seaplane Escadrille of Port Said had returned to France on 3 May 1916.'

#22 pete-c

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:39 PM

This may also be of interest, concerning the allies in1916:
'The Ark Royal was a repair ship at Mudros. The balloon ships, Hector and Canning, had returned to England in May. The French Seaplane Escadrille of Port Said had returned to France on 3 May 1916.'

Many thanks Bryn.

#23 El Shahin

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:45 AM

Here are some quoting from my book "Gallipoli 1915" about the Turkish Naval Aviation Sqd. The Sqdr was located at Nagara close to Canakkale opposite of the Kilia Tepe.

 

Bereits im Mai 1915 waren auch Wasserflugzeuge vom Sonderkommando aus Deutschland erbeten worden. Das Oberkommando der Kaiserlichen Marine entsprach diesem Wunsch und sendete im Juni die ersten von einem 100 PS starken Motor angetriebenen Gotha WD 1 Wasserflugzeuge nebst drei Piloten, drei Beobachtern und sechs Mechanikern unter Führung von Kapitänleutnant Ernst Liebmann in die Türkei. Sie wurden, wie bereits die Landflugzeuge, per Bahn- und Lufttransport nach San Stefano überführt, wo eine Maschine zu Ausbildungszwecken verblieb, während die beiden anderen nach Çanak verlegt wurden. Dort war zunächst nur ein kleiner Schuppen vorhanden, der vergrößert wurde und zur Unterbringung eines Flugzeuges ausreichte. Ein zweiter Schuppen wurde bei Nagara errichtet[i]. Die drei Flugzeuge bildeten fortan die Wasserfliegerabteilung, die dem Befehlshaber der Dardanellen, Admiral von Usedom, unterstellt wurde. Mitte Juli fanden die ersten Flüge nach Mudros, Tenedos und Imbros statt. Der Flugbetrieb musste auf die Mondscheinnächte und die Morgenstunden gelegt werden, da die langsamen 100-PS-Maschinen ohne jede Armierung den schnelleren feindlichen Jagdflugzeugen deutlich unterlegen waren. Trotzdem konnten über 50 Flüge über feindlichem Gebiet und sogar vereinzelt Bombenabwürfe durchgeführt werden. Ausserdem wurden bei gutem Wetter U-Boot-Aufklärungsflüge über dem Marmara-Meer unternommen. Die nahende Augustoffensive war durch Beobachtungsflüge der Wasserfliegerabteilung aufgeklärt worden, die in der Nacht vom 27. auf den 28. Juli bei Mondlicht 87 Schiffe bei der Mudros-Bucht entdeckt hatte. Eines der drei Flugzeuge ging Ende August durch Bruchlandung verloren...

 

Even in May 1915 the German "Sonderkommando" asked for Naval planes from Germany. The Higher Naval Command of the Imperial Navy accepted this wish and sent the first planes of the Type Gotha WD1 with a 100 hp engine plus three pilots, three observers and six mechanics under the command of LtCmdr Ernst Liebmann to Turkey. They were transferred similar to the other planes via land and air transport to San Stefano where one plane stayed back for training and the other two were transfered to Canakkale. There was just a small hangar which was enlarged and than big enough to cover one plane. A second hangar was built in Nagara. Those three planes were now the Wasserfliegerabteilung (Naval Aviation Squadron), which was under command of the Commander of the Dardanelles, Admiral von Usedom. Mid July the first flights towards Mudros, Tenedos and Imbros were conducted. The operations were limited to the night hours and to early morning because the planes were very slow with their 100hp engines and were clearly inferior to planes of the enemy. However, they managed to conduct some 50 missions and even were able to drop some bombs. During good weather they also conducted recce missions against enemy submarines at the Sea of Marmara. The approaching offensive in August was observed by recce flights of the Naval Aviation Squadron which observed during flights in the night 27th/28th July some 87 ships in the Bay of Mudros. One of the planes was lost in August because of a crash landing.

 


 

 

[i] BA/MA, RM 5 / 2405, Bericht von Usedom, 30. Mai 1916

[ii] BA/MA, RM 5 / 2405, Bericht von Usedom, 16. April 1917

 

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#24 pete-c

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:52 PM

This seems to confirm that the aircraft concerned was indeed a WD2(II).

Many thanks for the great photo.



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