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Minimum Age for Royal navy


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#26 Alison Arnold

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 10:53 AM

QUOTE (Testerchild @ Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:42:01 +0000)
lI'll add to Terry's names in Sussex (if you're likely to be in the neighbourhood).



Bob,

Missed this bit from your original posting. Yes these are of interest as I live close to Worthing. I have been to Hove cemetary this morning and taken some photos.

The interesting thing about the Candy grave is there are two other names inscribed on the side of the monument Major Herbert Candy MC TD(born 1910) and Colonel Reginald Candy (Born 1908). It looks like the family had a military connection in later years.

I am now totally intrigued by this one.

By the way Bob if you should happen to see one stressed woman with five "delightful" children in tow (over the next 7 weeks)wandering around the cemeteries of Sussex. Say hello it will probably be me!!

Regards

Ali

#27 Terry Denham

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 11:06 AM

Ali

Today, I have asked CWGC about H.H.Candy and I will let you know the answer as to why he does not have a war grave.

You may see me trolling around the cemeteries as well. I'll keep a look out for the kids!

#28 Terry Denham

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 11:44 AM

Ali/Bob

I have to admit it....I was talking before checking sufficiently!!!

This casualty does have a war grave except that the name is not Candy but GANDY. CWGC have just confirmed this name and I find that I did have his details after all!!!

GANDY, Herbert Howard
Gunner
Royal Navy, HM Torpedo Boat 7
Died 05.06.17 in air raid by German Gotha aircraft on Sheerness Age 26 Born in Brighton, Sussex
Parents: Ripley Gandy
HOVE OLD (SOUTH) CEMETERY Grave E.126
Personal Inscription: 'In the midst of life we are in death. O by the power grant, Lord, that we at our last hour fall not from thee. Au revoir, dear brother'

Sorry for the confusion

#29 Alison Arnold

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 11:58 AM

Terry,

I have just looked at my photos of the grave again. There is no crossing on the G so it looks like a C. Must be the way the stonemason carved it. The two names on the side are of a similar design and it was the G in Augustus that gave it away. Of course all of this is in hindsight and so much easier!! laugh.gif

Anyway mystery solved.


Ali

#30 Terry Denham

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 12:20 PM

Ali

Yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing!

I remember now, having visited every one of the 4000 war graves in Sussex, that I have seen this typeface before on private memorials - where the 'G' has no cross bar and looks like a 'C'. With age and wear it usually now appears as a 'C' unless you look very closely.

I am just annoyed with myself that I did not remember this one. I am going to Brighton any minute and was going to divert to check this one again - no need now!

#31 MartinWills

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 07:42 PM

A total of 29 cadets served as Midshipmen on the three cruisers that sank. 16 survived and 13 died.

Using CWGC and Census data I have determined ages as follows:

Stubbs, John Duncan Aboukir 15
Gore-Browne, Geoffrey Aboukir 15 Grandson of Col. Brown VC
Riley, Herbert Lawson Aboukir Age Unknown
Barchard, Geoffrey Bruce Aboukir Age Unknown
Allsopp, Anthony Victor George Aboukir Age Unknown
Robertson, Alan Diarmid Campbell Aboukir 15

Corbyn, Vernon Hector Cressy Age Unknown
Delmege, Claude Cressy Age Unknown
Froude, John Aubrey Cressy 16
Matthews, Frank George Cressy 16

Harold, Geoffrey Charles Hogue Age Unknown (probably 15)
Holt, Cecil William Hogue 15
Ward, Harold Henshaw Hogue 15

Of the thirteen; two were sixteen; five were fifteen and I have not been able to determine the age of the other six though one of them at least was probably fifteen

As regards the sinkings, Weddiger recorded the times (by German clock) of the sinkings as:

Aboukir 0720
Hogue 0755
Cressy 0835

It was Midshipman Wenham Wykeham-Musgrave (known as Kit) who rose in time to be Commander Wykeham-Musgrave who survived all three torpedoeings swimming in succession from Aboukir to Hogue to Cressy.

I hope this helps with the initial enquiry.

#32 john w.

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 09:54 PM

Still seems young when compared to the army

John

#33 Jonathan Saunders

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 10:30 PM

Thanks Martin - you have wetted my appetite on the three old cruisers again. Back to the library/PRO for me.

#34 Deleted_Testerchild_*

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 10:37 PM

Ali & terry,

Whoops, sorry about that! So if you see some guy wandering around Hove Cemetary with a very red face like he's been out in the sun too long, it'll probably be me - still crimson with embarrassment. I'll take my reading glasses next time.

Pip Pip!

ohmy.gif

#35 Alison Arnold

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 07:18 AM

Martin,

Thanks for that information. Brillant just what I wanted.

Bob: Don't worry I mis-read it to and you have to look very closely to notice. Don't think you need worry about being out in the sun to long today- it's pouring laugh.gif


Thanks once again to everybody.

Ali

#36 Yorts

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 10:38 AM

QUOTE (Alibee @ Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:37:06 +0000)
Hi all,

Does anyone know if there was aminimum age for serving in the Royal Navy. I am currently researching a 15 year old Midshipman Philip Sadler Candy died 1914.

Date of birth has been checked on 1901 census comes up as born 1899. Parents details are the same as on CWGC

What age could he have joined up?

Hope somebody can shed some light on this one.

Regards


Ali

I have a 15 star trio & RN LSGC to a Bugler, Royal Marine Artillery, who was 14 when he qualified for his 14-15 Star aboard HMS Prince George. He saw service during the bombardment at Gallipoli and remained with the fleet until the end of the war gaining the rank of Acting Bombardier. On the amalgamation of the RMLI and RMA in 1923 he opted to join the regulating branch of the RN, and his LSGC records him as RPO HMS Victory.

I also have a QSA to a trumpter RGA (kia WW1 whilst Gnr) who was also 14 when he qualified for his first medal.

Anyone have medals to anyone younger?

rgds,

Alex. biggrin.gif

#37 john w.

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 11:14 AM

Are you looking for medals for those who survived the war or were KIA? and at what age?

John

#38 Raster Scanning

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 11:26 AM

QUOTE (Signals @ Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:37:17 +0000)
To date when I have tried to look objectively at Jack Cornwell’s VC I can see no act of heroism as such, but a young hero all the same.

To return to the subject of J T Cornwell, I have a booklet produced by a T C MacCormack of Northampton.
He sold copies for 1/- each in aid of the Cornwell family who suffered badly during the war. It gives many interesting facts about the family.

J T Cornwell was born at Leyton in Essex, on January 8th 1900. His father, an old soldier who had served in the Boer War and Egypt, died 5 months after his son's death aged 64 while he was "serving his country". John's elder brother (18) was called up 2 months after this double bereavement and joined the Navy. Mrs Cornwell was left to fend for herself and her two remaining children and had to work in a coffee shop 12 hours a day 7 days a week to make ends meet.

The book gives this description of the action that led to the award of the VC.

"Early in the engagement Jack was wounded. At the time all his gun mates (eleven) were either killed or wounded, and lay on the deck around their battered gun.

But Jack, though exposed to danger all the time, stuck to his gun until the battle was over. His lieutenant who could see that the lad was wounded, urged him to give in and go below, but Jack quietly replied: Sir the Chester's out to win".

When the battle was over his Petty Officer came up, and slapping his back said "well done, my lad! you've stuck it well, and you're lucky too not to get wounded". "I am wounded sir" said Jack.

Scarcely had he uttered the words when he collapsed on the deck. On being taken below the awful nature of the wound was discovered"

"His wound was considered so dangerous that his parents were teleghraphed for. His father was away serving his country, having rejoined the Army aged 62, while his mother, owing to lack of the means to pay her fare, could not start out at once, and arrived at Grimsby several hours too late to see her brave boy alive".

Imagine the distress of his mother knowing he was dying and not having the means to go to him.

His father was Pte Eli Cornwell, 15823, 57th Protection Coy, Royal Defence Corps. He is buried with John in the Manor Park Cemetary, Essex.
John's eldest brother Arthur was killed in 1918 while serving with the 13th Londons and their mother died in 1919.

Quite a sacrifice.

John

#39 Jonathan Saunders

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 12:14 PM

Although I mentioned this on another thread somewhere, I am constantly reminded of the sad tale of Matilda Coombes whose story I came across when researching the VANGUARD losses - she blew up at anchor in 1917. Matilda lost a husband and son. I thought of her often and hoped she had had a large family to comfort her and then a couple of years later one of her Great nieces contacted me to say her son had been an only child and so Matilda had lost everything, never really recovering from her loss. I find myself thinking of her sadness often and I wonder how many other mothers from all sides Matilda is representative of.

#40 paul guthrie

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 01:05 PM

That is an interesting account of Jack Cornwell's conduct and accepting it as entirely accurate it looks to me that the navy badly wanted to award a VC to someone.

#41 Myrtle

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 10:53 PM

Having been away for a while I have come to this thread quite late but thought I would mention HMS Hawke which was sunk 15th October 1914. While researching this I came across a list of the crew which included many 15 year old boys who were with the ship at the time of its sinking. I don't have my notes to hand but will check details later.

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#42 Jonathan Saunders

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 08:01 AM

As the four warships mentioned all sank in the early weeks of the war in 1914, I wonder if 15 yo Boys were then taken off ships for the remainder of the war?

Re HMS VANGUARD, destroyed 1917, Ive looked at each of the 840+ fatalities in some way and I dont remember one 15 yo amongst the numerous Boys killed.

#43 MartinWills

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 09:35 AM

I don't believe that any further youngsters were sent to war in they way that the 15 yo cadets at Dartmouth were in 1914. There was no shortage of trained naval men in 1914 and later. The number of Naval reservists available at the start of the war was well in excess of the places available on ships and a result the reservists were formed into an army unit - the Royal Naval Division - wherein lies another story.

The experience of the cadets at sea was that they lacked naval training and in an active service environment it was not practicable to provide training on the previous peacetime basis. This may also have prompted a decision not to end young cadets to sea after the autumn 1914 experience.

#44 Alan Seymour

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 11:07 AM

Another 15 year old Midshipman:

WILLIAM ELLICE

Midshipman
H.M.S. "Bulwark.", Royal Navy

who died on
Thursday 26 November 1914 . Age 15 .


Additional Information: Son of Major Edward C. Ellice, D.S.O., and Margaret G. Ellice (nee Thomas), of Invergarry, Inverness-shire. Treble blue at Osborne; Rugby, Cricket and Hockey.
Cemetery: PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIALHampshire, United Kingdom


Alan Seymour

#45 Jonathan Saunders

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 12:05 PM

Martin - sorry I reverted to Boys service, when of course you had already established it was 15 yo cadets serving as Midshipman. As you quite rightly say, the seaman ranks and trades were more than adequately filled by the Reservists called up in the early days of August 1914.

#46 Terry_Reeves

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 02:36 PM

Regarding the original question, the minimum age for a boy seaman was fifteen and a quarter up until December 1914, when it was raised to fifteen and three quarters. Boy entrants had to commit themselves to 12 years continuous service which started at the age of eighteen. Proof of age was a requirement of the enlistment process, normally a birth certificate. The boy's parents also had to give written permission for him to join. Source: Navy List's 1914 and 1915.

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#47 Alison Arnold

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 07:12 PM

Terry,

Thanks for the information that clarifies it for me.

Myrtle:

Would be interested in your 15 year olds. Can you supply details. Email me off forum if you could.

Alex:

Likewise would be interested in your medal recipients.

Big thanks tto all who replied

Ali

#48 john w.

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 09:42 PM

So whilst the army wasnt supposed to send boys of less than 18 overseas, the navy did it all the time... with permission in the latter case of the parents. Is that correct?

John

#49 Terry_Reeves

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 10:24 PM

John

There there were restrictions for 15 year olds, however 16-18 year old are referred to as "youths" and not "boys." I am happy to be corrected, but at 16 and above I believe these young men were able to go to sea on RN warships. As you will be aware no doubt, naval terms of service differed from the army in many respects. At the next opportunty, I will post the exact terms of reference so that you can see them in context.


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#50 john w.

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 10:16 AM

Cheers Terry

It will help me to resolve a few personal thoughts over the issue. It also shows that in fact there were historically differences between the two forces.

John