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The Red Baron


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#26 Adrian Roberts

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 01:20 AM

QUOTE
It is more important to see what is relevant for people today...... the man seems to be more like how I thought he should be."


Its this kind of relativism that worries me, the tendency to interpret and judge historical figures through 21st century thinking. I find real history interesting and inspiring enough, without resorting to alternative history.

But I guess I'm too old and too obsessive. A documentary wouldn't make money. And providing the film portrays his courage and sense of duty and leadership, and is not a "debunking" job that portrays him totally negatively, it will hopefully create some respect among modern audiences, and maybe encourage some to find out the truth (and maybe become interested in WW1 aviation generally!)

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#27 digger5410

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 01:49 AM

Is there an itemised list as to what types of planes the Baron shot down?
Rod

#28 Adrian Roberts

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 11:19 PM

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Is there an itemised list as to what types of planes the Baron shot down?


Rod

No problem, this kind of information has been well researched over the years. Try his entry on theaerodrome.com:

http://www.theaerodr...richthofen2.php

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#29 Paul Hederer

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 04:20 AM




The initial release date for this was to have been 14 February, but I see now it's been pushed back to 10 April here in Germany. Might be that it's going to be released here, the US and UK at the same time, unless the other release dats have also been pushed back.

Maybe the producers are hoping to get a bounce from the anniversary of von Richthofen's death on 21 April?


Paul

#30 Tom W.

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:12 AM

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A meticulous reconstruction of the Baron's life and the historical setting was not uppermost in mind, that didn't interest me so much. It is more important to see what is relevant for people today. I saw no sense in making the film like a well-researched documentary. However, during my preparation on the film and looking into the story of his life, the man seems to be more like how I thought he should be.

What do you want to bet the movie will show Manfred weeping about the horrors of war, crying into his beer about having to shoot down his enemies, bewailing the inhumanity of it all, praying for peace, snarling about politicians lying him into a war for profit, wondering why we can't just all get along, etc., etc., etc.?

And then Roy Brown will be paralyzed with sorrow and self-loathing over what he did to the peace-loving Manfred. Joseph Fiennes is brilliant at being teary-eyed and dumb struck. I can see him now, landing his plane and slowing doffing his flying helmet, standing there in shock, gazing down at the corpse with his mouth slightly agape, wordlessly mourning the awful thing he just did.

I hope I'm wrong. I want to see a movie, not another lecture on how war is icky and mean.

#31 ItemCo16527

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 08:17 AM

I had no idea there is a movie about the Red Baron coming out. Joseph Fiennes as Roy Brown and Til Schweiger as Werner Voss. I'm sold already. I just hope they don't have some fictional "romantic interest" thrown in.

#32 yellow

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 10:51 AM

Would you be happy with the historical accuracy of the film if it created the impression that the majority of the Barons kills were achieved in furballs?

I know what I think, I was just wondering what the pals thoughts are.

#33 Dolphin

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 11:44 AM

QUOTE (yellow @ Feb 20 2008, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the majority of the Barons kills were achieved in furballs?

I'm happy to confess that I might be out of touch with modern (UK?) expressions, but I've no idea what this means. Could you explain?

Thanks

Gareth


#34 yellow

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 01:36 PM

Hi Gareth,

Sorry to hear that I confused you with this slang aviation term. This is a good site:

http://www.hazegray.org/faq/acr3.htm

Fur balls often occured during WW1 when literaly hundreds of aicraft engaged in heated combat over a relatively small area. Would the Pals agree or disagree that the majority of the Barons kills were made in such actions?

#35 Regulus 1

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 07:05 PM

http://www.redbaron-...m/index_de.html

And choose trailer, it is still the German version of the trailer, but it is great !

#36 egbert

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 07:20 PM

QUOTE (Regulus 1 @ Feb 20 2008, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
..... it is still the German version of the trailer, but it is great !


I am confused; isn't it a German movie premiere? If yes German language would be fair enough, would it?

#37 Paul Hederer

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 05:02 AM

QUOTE (egbert @ Feb 20 2008, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am confused; isn't it a German movie premiere? If yes German language would be fair enough, would it?



Actually Egbert, I think it's being produced in English and German for simultaneous release. It could be a little bit like a History Channel episode they show here in Germany--You have a German speaking English, with German overdub laugh.gif

Paul

#38 ItemCo16527

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 07:45 AM

Was I hallucinating, or did they show von Richthofen hanging around with Roy Brown (who's wearing a Military Cross and Distinguished Flying Cross, when he was actually awarded the Distinguished Service Cross & Bar)?

Also, I knew they'd do the whole "love interest" thing.

#39 Dolphin

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE (yellow @ Feb 21 2008, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fur balls often occured during WW1 when literaly hundreds of aicraft engaged in heated combat over a relatively small area.

Yellow

Thanks for enlightening me. I spent over 35 years in the aviation industry without encountering the term - and I'm sure that it wasn't used during the Great War either.

I very much doubt that there were any occurrences in the Great War when "literally hundreds" of aircraft were engaged in the same combat. Dozens, yes, but at least two hundred, no.

As I recall, most of Manfred von Richthofen's victories were in much smaller actions, perhaps a Jasta against an RFC flight or two. The big fights, with Jagdgeschwaders pitted against more than one RAF squadron, generally took place later in the War, after he was killed.

Cheers

Gareth





#40 Paul Hederer

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 05:06 AM



Two trailers are up, one in German the other in English. Funny how the content and presentation are so different:

Both the German and English trailers are up.

German here: http://www.redbaron-...m/index_de.html

English here: http://www.redbaron-...m/index_en.html


Unfortunately, watching them I'm seeing a lot of elements that make me think this may be the German version of "Flyboys." There is an obvious strong love interest in the form of von Richtofen's nurse (I think there was even a very hasty glimpse of a sex-scene in the trailer)....

Paul

#41 wilkokcl

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 10:18 AM

Thanks for the links Paul - looking forward to seeing it in a few weeks.

Mark

#42 DingleRoad

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 08:30 PM

Just reading that report about an American Pilot tangling with VR the day he died. Did RFC aircraft have tracer bullets ????

http://www.theaerodr...-shot-down.html

#43 Andrew Upton

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 11:26 PM

QUOTE (DingleRoad @ Mar 15 2008, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just reading that report about an American Pilot tangling with VR the day he died. Did RFC aircraft have tracer bullets ????

http://www.theaerodr...-shot-down.html


Yes, from 1914 onwards - by the end of the war, a variety of AP, Incendiary and Explosive bullets were also in use (not all in aircraft though). TonyE will probably take to the stage now and give the fuller and more detailed answer...

#44 Bob G

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 02:04 PM

I have had a look at both trailers..........modern 'Hollywood' trash to be honest, Can they never get it right ?
The only thing stood out was the incredible accuracy of the wreath laying, wow!
Yet again history will be distorted, as normal, with people who have no feel or empthay with the subject.
Bob Grundy


#45 Desdichado

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 04:19 PM

I haven't seen the trailer but I did see a programme not too long ago that attempted to recreate von Richthofen's last flight using computer simulation and other devices such as a laser weapon that allegedly replicated a Lewis gun. The conclusion was that the fatal shot was fired from the ground by an Australian soldier. Brown attacked from above and behind and it was not a sustained attack as he supposedly flew away to aid another pilot in distress. The bullet entered von Richthofen's body from an upward trajectory.

William Burrows, in his book Richthofen - A True Story of the Red Baron, claims that rumours of a romance between the Rittmeister and his nurse, Katie Otersdorf, were untrue. It was said at the time that the couple had an intimate relationship and she sent him scented letters upon his return to the front. The letters have never been found. Burrows also states that there was gossip that they had a child together, a son, who grew up never knowing his father's name. All grist to the Hollywood mill I suppose. However, it has also been suggested, albeit obliquely, that he was a homosexual. One friend of von Richthofen, Leutnant Hans Georg von der Osten, claimed that although von Richthofen treated all women with profound respect, he was 'indifferent to them romantically and never had a sweetheart." Make of that what you will but how come the Americans haven't written a script in which Eddie Rickenbacker shoots the Baron down?

#46 Paul Hederer

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 04:28 PM

...but how come the Americans haven't written a script in which Eddie Rickenbacker shoots the Baron down?


Silly man. Everybody knows Snoopy shot down the Red Baron.

Paul



#47 Adrian Roberts

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 01:20 AM

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William Burrows, in his book Richthofen - A True Story of the Red Baron, claims that rumours of a romance between the Rittmeister and his nurse, Katie Otersdorf, were untrue. It was said at the time that the couple had an intimate relationship and she sent him scented letters upon his return to the front. The letters have never been found. Burrows also states that there was gossip that they had a child together, a son, who grew up never knowing his father's name. All grist to the Hollywood mill I suppose. However, it has also been suggested, albeit obliquely, that he was a homosexual. One friend of von Richthofen, Leutnant Hans Georg von der Osten, claimed that although von Richthofen treated all women with profound respect, he was 'indifferent to them romantically and never had a sweetheart."


I have a copy of an Over The Front article (Vol 12 no 3 "The Girl he left Behind", Jan Hayslett and Suzanne Fischer), which also suggests that the Katie Obersdorf story is purely speculative. They do suggest two other names. There was an Austrian girl called Polldi "Lea" Schwarz, whose name was linked to MvR and there are suggestions of a liaison. But again, little real evidence: there is one story that she visited the Richthofen family home after his death and was turned away, and the likelihood is that being of a lower social class than he, an engagement would have been very unlikely.

A slightly better candidate is Baroness Adele von Wallenberg Pallachy, a year younger than MvR. The authors seem to accept that they became engaged about six weeks before his death; she never admitted to this in later life but some of her family appear to have confirmed that this was the case.

As to whether he was homosexual: this is speculation deriving from the anachronistic perceptions of our own culture. He was reserved and not at ease with women in social situations, so he must have been gay, supposedly. I would want a lot more evidence than that. Having said that, I did once see an article that suggested than Lothar von Richthfen and Eric Lowenhardt were more than good friends. But even there, we would need to have a lot more knowledge about how to intrepret the culture of the time to be able to interpret the evidence. Not that it matters, either way...

#48 ian turner

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 10:31 AM

In today's Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph...1/wbaron101.xml

#49 George Armstrong Custer

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 10:41 AM



And in today's 'Times', which makes an interesting mention of proposals to reinstate the Iron Cross as a gallantry award for today's German military:

TimesRedBaron


ciao,
GAC

#50 JRN

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 12:10 PM

Is there a UK release date yet?