17 replies to this topic

[SFayers]

Hi folks,

This request is a bit of a long shot on behalf of myself and 'KENT - SUFFOLK REGIMENT'. By any chance does anyone know if the war diary for the 1/5th Suffolks still exists anywhere, or perhaps have access to it, or otherwise have knowledge of the battalion's activities during the Gallipoli campaign?

I'm interested in finding out what happened on 21st August 1915 - on this date 12 members of the battalion were killed in action, all apparently with no known graves, and yet at this time (so I've been informed) the battalion were meant to be in reserve trenches. Could these men have been out on patrol? Otherwise why no known graves if they were killed whilst in the reserve?

Any help or thoughts on the subject would be greatly appreciated.


Best regards

Steve Fayers

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The 1/5th Suffolk Regiment T.F;Regimental History for this period states:
"On August 18th,the Battalion was relieved by the Royal Irish Fusiliers & withdrew to the local reserve trenches.Here we remained until August 27th,busy making the Reserve trenches & dug-outs,furnishing water carrying parties,making roads & otherwise improving communications.This Period,although we were kept hard at work day & night,and were continually under SHRAPNEL  & SNIPER fire,was a pleasant relief from being continually on the move.....On August 21st the strength of the Battalion @ Battn HQ was 12 Officers & 499 OR's."{Sadly it does not give details on events on that particular day}
I would suspect from that that the casualties you mention were from the Shelling & Sniping of the Reserve Trenches.
Consequently any Graves may have been lost in the interim years between 1915 & 1918,or if killed by shell fire there may have not been Bodies to bury?

[T8HANTS]

Hi

This is from the 8th Hants War Diary;-


[August] "16th 3.10pm The battalion received orders with the 5th Suffolk Regiment to proceed to the north side of KIRETCH TEPE SIRT to take up the support trenches of the 10th Division.  We were directed by a Staff Officer to the top of the hill and told to wait.  The Battalion eventually moved along the mule path for a distance of over a mile and took up some trenches which we found there, but they certainly could not be called reserve or support trenches as there were no trenches in front of us.

Aug 23rd    Still in occupation of the trenches. As the sniping was getting bad a reconoitering patrol was sent out to our front and located some trenches on a hill about 600 yards from our front.  The snipers as far as can be ascertained are located in some caves at the bottom of KIRETCH TEPE SIRT.  To commence with in order to get rid of the difficulty we endeavored to subdue them by machine gun fire, but experience proved that this method only aggravated the nuisance and had no effect and was simply a waste of ammunition,.  The practice was therefore discontinued.  The only method of subduing appears to be anti - sniping parties, but the character of the British Infantry soldier does not lend itself readily to such an enterprise and it requires a considerable amount of training before they are of any use in this respect."

Gareth

[SFayers]

Many thanks for your feed-back chaps - very much appreciated.

Best regards

Steve

[rob carman]

Steve and Kent-Suffolk Regt,

Are you aware of:

Fair, A. and Wolton, Capt. E(ric). D. The history of the 1/5th Battalion, the Suffolk Regiment. Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1921 or maybe 1923.

My copy is inaccesible for at least a month but others here have copies.

Regards,

Rob Carman.

[SFayers]

Steve and Kent-Suffolk Regt,

Are you aware of:

Fair, A. and Wolton, Capt. E(ric). D. The history of the 1/5th Battalion, the Suffolk Regiment. Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1921 or maybe 1923.

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the reference. No I hadn't heard of that one - I guess like many of these books from this era it would be somewhat difficult to get hold of a copy these days?

If anyone else on the forum does have access to this book I would really appreciate a look-up.

cheers

Steve

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

No I hadn't heard of that one - I guess like many of these books from this era it would be somewhat difficult to get hold of a copy these days?

If anyone else on the forum does have access to this book I would really appreciate a look-up.

I have & I did that is where the quote came from!!
& yes it is.............{Difficult to find}

[SFayers]

I have & I did that is where the quote came from!!
& yes it is.............{Difficult to find}

Aha! Well that saves a job! Many thanks again for your help.

cheers

Steve

[Joatmon]

Two of my great uncles were in the 5th Battalion Suffolk Regiment at Gallipoli and Palestine both of them survived although one of them was wounded in Palestine I think. One of them was a Sergeant and is pictured in the book The History of the 5th Battalion The Suffolk Regiment by Capt  A. FAIR, M.C. and Capt.  E. D. WOLTON. If anyone is looking for information about the 5th Suffolks I have some pictures and information from the book.

[Capt B]

Hi all

I realise that the above posts go back some time, but if there is anyone out there who has any info on the 1/5 Suffolks at Gallipoli I would appreciate some help.

I am researching the events of 21 Aug 15 when 15 lads from Hadleigh, Suffolk were killed.

If anyone can help, please post.

Thanks

[Joatmon]

Cap B

I have transcribed the diary for 1915 (http://www.suffolksoldiers.com/) currently working on the 1916 / 1917 diaries. Also have a look at this thread http://1914-1918.inv...wtopic=63437=

Ray

[SFayers]

Hi Cap B,

Just to re-iterate what Ray has written, and from those earlier posts, all those 1/5th Suffolk men listed by the CWGC as having died on the 21st August 1915 appear to have been killed on the 12th August. My nan's cousin, Stanley Scarff, was one of the many Hadleigh boys to die that day - do you have a Hadleigh connection?

I managed to get Stanley's death certificate and it also gave the date of death as 21st August. If all the others' death certificates have the same date of death (I suspect they probably do - but without paying for copies of all of them I won't know for certain), I would think the CWGC are highly unlikely to change their dates unfortunately. The 12th August was certainly a black day for Hadleigh.

Kind regards

Steve

[jeffdanward]

Hello, I have a relative on the Hadleigh war memorial who died in the action on the 12th August 1915. As I see it the problem arises because in the aftermath of the action the Battalion which had suffered severe losses and also had an equal number of men sick with dysentery, had lost all its senior officers and was under the temp. command of a captain must have become a little disorganised. Under the circumstances it is understandable if admin was neglected As a result the first official roll call did not take place until the 20th August and the official casualty book shows 49 men as missing with effect from 21st August.So that when the War Office eventually agreed that death could be presumed they were stuck with that date. That would be the source the CWGC used. Every thing else clearly points to the 12th being the date on which they died.  Jeff Ward.

[jeffdanward]

Hi Steve. regarding you post of the 28th May  about Stanley Scarff. Of all those Hadleigh men listed as being killed on the 21st August Stanley is probably the only one that did die on the 21st.. I've had a chance to have a look at the 5th Battalion's Casualty register for the Galipolli campaign .Stanley is entered on the page for those killed in action. All the others are on the pages for those missing in  action. Hope his is of some help. Jeff Ward

[SFayers]

Many thanks Jeff,

Yes, since my earlier posts I've been lucky enough to see the casualty registers with Stanley's entry. Interestingly, from the roll of honour given in the 1/5th Battalion history by Captains A. Fair M.C. and E. D. Wolton (the latter one of the orignal officers who landed in Gallipoli on 10th August)  all those members of the battalion commemorated on the Helles Memorial that the CWGC has listed as having died on the 21st August, Stanley included, were casualties of the attack on the 12th.

I guess it's not surprising that Hadleigh paid such a high price on the 12th August; men from Hadleigh formed part of the pre-war C Company of the battalion, which on reorganization to the 4 company system in January 1915 (together with the original pre-war A Company) formed the new A Company. On the 12th August the 'new' A and C Companies were leading the advance of the battalion, and as such I suspect were perhaps the hardest hit.

As a matter of interest, may I ask who your relative is?


Kind regards

Steve

[jeffdanward]

Hi Steve  I have a couple of cousins -once removed- on Hadleigh War Memorial. Ernest J Ward was amongst those who died at Galipolli on the 12-8-1915, next to him on memorial  is his brother Robert G. Ward who joined the 2nd Grenadier Guards 1908, killed in action 26 may 1918 At Ayette Northern France.He had earlier been awarded the Military Medal. A third  brother Frederick also served in the Suffolks at Galipolli he is listed as wounded in action on 17-8-1915 the nature of the wound-"Shock ". He survived Galipolli and transfered to the Machine Gun Corps 16-8-1916. There was a forth brother Henry in the 16th Lancers joined up 1908 he also survived.
The book by Capts. Fair and Wolton  is interesting and gives a graphic account of events at Galipolli. As you probably know Capt. Wolton's brother was killed on the 12-8-15. The Captain had his Camera with him throughout the Suffolks time in the Middle East. The albums containing all his photos are in the archives at Bury records office and available to view. only problem he was'nt very good at annotating them.  Nonetheless they're worth a look. I also have a cousin on the Layham war memorial George F Ward 7th Suffolks died of wounds 7th July 1916  Regards Jeff Ward.

[SFayers]

Thanks Jeff,

I remember there being four Wards listed on the memorial in St Mary's - were Bertie and Charles Ward also related? Funnily enough, one of my paternal grandfather's cousins who served with the 7th Suffolks is also on the Hadleigh memorial, Bert George Bowers; he was killed in the attack on Ovillers on 3rd July 1916.


All the best

Steve

[jeffdanward]

Hi Steve, not related as far as I'm aware, Regards Jeff