Jump to content


Remembered Today:

Photo

German feldgrau kratzchen Lubeck regiment (IR 162)


16 replies to this topic

#1 Anzac16

Anzac16

    Major

  • Old Sweats
  • 386 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Holland

Posted 04 March 2006 - 05:20 PM

I got this German feldgrau kratzchen from the Lubeck regiment (IR 162) some weeks ago but i wanted to share it with you guy's.




Well i am very happy with it

#2 Steven Broomfield

Steven Broomfield

    General

  • Old Sweats
  • 14,079 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SO50, SW1 and South West Trains
  • Interests:10th Royal Hussars (PWO), 11th Hussars (PAO), The Royal Hussars (PWO), The King's Royal Hussars

Posted 04 March 2006 - 07:05 PM

I bet you are, you lucky sausage!

#3 P.B.

P.B.

    Major

  • Old Sweats
  • 489 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Imperial German Army Militaria/photographs.<br>The Durham Light Infantry 1914-18.<br>WWI British Medals.

Posted 05 March 2006 - 12:05 PM

Very, very nice example.....it's getting tougher to find these caps in this kind of condition, and in my experience finding any with cockades other than Prussian is also quite difficult.

Cheers

Paul.

#4 George Armstrong Custer

George Armstrong Custer

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,074 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 March 2008 - 10:35 AM

A very nice piece - especially so with the less commonly seen cockades of one of the old Hanseatic League states. Got any pics showing the whole cap?

ciao,
GAC

#5 fritz

fritz

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 817 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hannover

Posted 25 March 2008 - 11:10 AM

QUOTE (George Armstrong Custer @ Mar 25 2008, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A very nice piece - especially so with the less commonly seen cockades of one of the old Hanseatic League states. Got any pics showing the whole cap?

ciao,
GAC



Yes indeed a fine sample.

But sorry, in my opinion if it is from I.R. 162 it must have the Prussian cockade black and white!

So it seems it is an Feldmütze of the Landwehr with the iron cross in the lower cockade?

Regards

Fritz

#6 George Armstrong Custer

George Armstrong Custer

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,074 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 March 2008 - 12:13 PM

Hi Fritz,
My understanding is that the Lubeck cross kokarden was only worn in conjunction with the Prussian State kokarden of black and white prior to 1897. From 1897 the Lubeck kokarden was worn with the Reichskokarde of red white and black, as correctly shown on Anzac16's example. The following information on Hanseatic kokarden, though primarily relating to the pickelhaube, may also be of interest:

The kokarden of the three Hanseatic City-states initially utilised the same emblem and colours on their respective kokarden between 1867 and 1897: An eight pointed red Maltese Cross was surrounded by a field of white on a serrated one piece kokarde which was also ribbed. The shape of the Maltese Cross was not merely painted on but was impressed into the kokarde. Any 'Hanseatic' kokarden encountered without the impression of the Cross are just someone's fancy paint job!

The Hanseatic kokarden was of one piece construction for all ranks; however they did vary in size, the officer's being about one third larger than the enlisted pattern. Examples of two-piece officer's kokarden are believed to have been manufactured. These apparently consisted of the ribbed serrated kokarde with a seperate Maltese Cross superimposed and attached by four prongs.

After 1897 Hamburg changed the central emblem of their kokarde from a Maltese Cross to plain Iron Cross emblem. The red and white colours remained the same.

Also in 1897 Bremen opted for a simple kokarde of white-red-white.

Only Lubeck, therefore, maintained the original pattern of kokarde after 1897 - the red Maltese Cross on white background which can be seen on Anzac16's example. On officer's pickelhauben of the Hanseatic States the one piece Landes-Kokarde (red Maltese Cross) was worn in conjunction with the two piece Reichs-Kokarde (black, white and red).

One final point to remember on the Hanseatic States as far as pickelhauben are concerned is that the sole outwardly visible identification of a Hanseatic State pickelhaube is the kokarde. This fact explains the high cost of a Hanseatic kokarde which in unscrupulous hands can turn a Prussian pickelhaube into a more expensive Hanseatic one at a stroke!

source: J. A. Bowman The Pickelhaube, volume I Line Infantry, Imperial Publications, 1989.

ciao,
GAC

#7 Cnock

Cnock

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 5,227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgian Coast
  • Interests:Ypres Salient
    Air war over Flanders
    Marinekorps Flandern-Belgian Coast
    Bunkers WWI-WWII

Posted 25 March 2008 - 02:52 PM



Hi,

to my understanding this a Hamburg cockade, I.R. 76;

and why would Lübeck change for the Hamburg style of cockade

Lubeck IR 162 : red iron cross in red circle

Regards,

Cnock

#8 Cnock

Cnock

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 5,227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgian Coast
  • Interests:Ypres Salient
    Air war over Flanders
    Marinekorps Flandern-Belgian Coast
    Bunkers WWI-WWII

Posted 26 March 2008 - 08:20 PM



Hi,

PIc of soldier IR 76 in 1917.

Some 40 years ago I found on the floor of a loft some 300 cockades for Krätchen.
Half of it were caked with rust, but the other half was in excellent condition.
Many were national cockades, but also for Prussian soldiers and officers, further Saxony, Wuerttemberg and some Hamburg cockades in mint condition.

Regards,

Cnock

Attached Files

  • Attached File  IR76.jpg   53.41KB   0 downloads


#9 joerookery

joerookery

    Major

  • Old Sweats
  • 433 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Antonio Texas USA
  • Interests:Imperial German history and doctrine

Posted 27 March 2008 - 02:18 AM



Lübeck, Bremen, Hamburg Officer cockades

These cockades are from pickelhaube. A sad thing is that Bowman is a notoriously poor source. Sad because he had such a wide readership.

#10 George Armstrong Custer

George Armstrong Custer

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,074 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 March 2008 - 04:41 AM

QUOTE (George Armstrong Custer @ Mar 25 2008, 12:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
After 1897 Hamburg changed the central emblem of their kokarde from a Maltese Cross to plain Iron Cross emblem. The red and white colours remained the same.

Also in 1897 Bremen opted for a simple kokarde of white-red-white.

Only Lubeck, therefore, maintained the original pattern of kokarde after 1897 - the red Maltese Cross on white background which can be seen on Anzac16's example.

source: J. A. Bowman The Pickelhaube, volume I Line Infantry, Imperial Publications, 1989.


QUOTE (joerookery @ Mar 27 2008, 02:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A sad thing is that Bowman is a notoriously poor source. Sad because he had such a wide readership.


But your three excellent illustrations below confirm the correctness of Bowman's information on the appearance of the post-1897 kokarden for the Hanseatic States of Lubeck, Bremen and Hamburg! Your pickelhaube example for Lubeck matches that on Anzac16's kratzchen:

QUOTE (joerookery @ Mar 27 2008, 02:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Lübeck, Bremen, Hamburg Officer cockades

These cockades are from pickelhaube.


ciao,
GAC


#11 Cnock

Cnock

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 5,227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgian Coast
  • Interests:Ypres Salient
    Air war over Flanders
    Marinekorps Flandern-Belgian Coast
    Bunkers WWI-WWII

Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:05 AM



Soldiers cockades


Cnock

Attached Files



#12 Cnock

Cnock

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 5,227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgian Coast
  • Interests:Ypres Salient
    Air war over Flanders
    Marinekorps Flandern-Belgian Coast
    Bunkers WWI-WWII

Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:13 AM



As You will have noticed, there is a slight difference between officers' cockades and men.



Cnock

Attached Files



#13 Cnock

Cnock

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 5,227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgian Coast
  • Interests:Ypres Salient
    Air war over Flanders
    Marinekorps Flandern-Belgian Coast
    Bunkers WWI-WWII

Posted 28 March 2008 - 08:10 AM



as quoted : ...if a Hanseatic Kokarde can turn a Prussian Pickelhaube into a more expensive Hanseatic one...
this also goes for a Krätchen.

Regards,

Cnock

#14 George Armstrong Custer

George Armstrong Custer

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,074 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 March 2008 - 10:34 AM

QUOTE (Cnock @ Mar 28 2008, 08:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
as quoted : ...if a Hanseatic Kokarde can turn a Prussian Pickelhaube into a more expensive Hanseatic one...
this also goes for a Krätchen.

Regards,

Cnock



That's certainly a valid enough point, Cnock, though I'd have no basis for applying it to Anzac16's specific example.

ciao,
GAC

#15 Cnock

Cnock

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 5,227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgian Coast
  • Interests:Ypres Salient
    Air war over Flanders
    Marinekorps Flandern-Belgian Coast
    Bunkers WWI-WWII

Posted 28 March 2008 - 11:54 AM



Hello GAC,

Depends on what numbers and letters are left readable inside the cap.

Regards,

Cnock

#16 George Armstrong Custer

George Armstrong Custer

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,074 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 March 2008 - 12:02 PM

I agree! There's no substitute for actually handling an item to look for various indicators of authenticity and to get a feel for whether it's 'right'.

#17 joerookery

joerookery

    Major

  • Old Sweats
  • 433 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Antonio Texas USA
  • Interests:Imperial German history and doctrine

Posted 29 March 2008 - 02:12 AM

On a pickelhaube big differences between private purchase and issue helmets. issued helmets can have depot marks but private purchase ones for officers and one-year volunteers etc. do not. You always have to be cautious when dealing with a Hanseatic pickelhaube. unsure.gif