392 replies to this topic

[domwalsh]

Hi Duncan,
I'll see if I can come up with some good info for you. Are you planning a book or is your interest medal or family related? I might take you up on the Yeovilton offer. You might have to be patient as I'm waiting for my wife to give birth, but once the nappy rota has been sorted I'll see what I've got! For the time being, attached are some details of one of F12815 LM John F Wilkinson who died not that long ago. I have a couple of newspaper obits somewhere if you're interested.

Best Regards,
Dom
 WILKINSON_John_RNAS.doc   47.5K   58 downloads

[manicafan]

Hi Duncan,
I'll see if I can come up with some good info for you. Are you planning a book or is your interest medal or family related? I might take you up on the Yeovilton offer. You might have to be patient as I'm waiting for my wife to give birth, but once the nappy rota has been sorted I'll see what I've got! For the time being, attached are some details of one of F12815 LM John F Wilkinson who died not that long ago. I have a couple of newspaper obits somewhere if you're interested.

Best Regards,
Dom
 WILKINSON_John_RNAS.doc   47.5K   58 downloads

Hi Dom,
Thank you for details of John Wilkinson. I was aware of him as having been at Zeebrugge in HMS Vindictive.
I had some bare info on him. Born Oldham on 10th June 1897 and enlisted on 30Mar1916. I won't have the opportunity to look at his enlistment papers for about a month, but I'm almost certain that I will find that his papers will be signed by F.A.Brock himself, as was almost always the case when men were "entered for work of a chemical nature" as was added to their enlistment papers.
I don't intend to write a book, am not a medal collector and am not family connected. I have served a lot later in the Fleet Air Arm for 22 years and admire the RNAS. I am compiling a database and also act as a volunteer at the FAAM where I have built up a collection of some 14,000 folders on RNAS men, whenever I can find any info to justify a folder. I am interested in anyone who served in the RNAS from cradle to grave and would appreciate any info. There is no rush as I have been working at this since the late 1980's and will probably still be at it when I drop off my perch.
Regards Duncan

[Terry_Reeves]

Do anyone  have any knowledge of flame projectors being used on the Vindictive. I know that Capt PS Hay of the Royal Engineers supervised the operation of a static projector, possibly of the Vincent type, during the raid, for which he was received an MID.  I recently found a document at the NA, which has this to say:

"Arrangements were made for two large battery type flame throwers ro be installed on HMS Vindictive - then lying at Chatham. This was carried out by men from Wembley in collaboration with Naval ratings from RN Experimental Station, Stratford. The Admiralty also place orders for the construction of 36 "Hay Flame Guns" for use from HMS Vindictive. Forty men from the Naval ratings at Stratford to form a flame thrower crew, and they were drilled and trained a t Wembley in both the operation of both the large battery flame throwers and the Hay Flame Gun by Capt Hay and Lt Tribe. These equipments were subsequently used with considerable success when the Vindictive carried out the raid on the Zeebrugge Mole on  April 24th,1915."

The Hay Flame Guns in fact were portable projectors. I have found no corroborating evidence for these having been used, and wondered if anyone  may have come across anything that might support the assertion made.

Terry Reeves

[Siege Gunner]

Terry,

Carpenter (The Blocking of Zeebrugge, pp. 198-199):

"The Stokes gun batteries had already been bombing the Mole abreast of the ship.  The flame-throwers should also have helped to clear the way for our storming parties.  The order had been given to switch on the foremost flame-thrower.  Unfortunately the pipe leading from the containers to the hut had been severed somewhere below by a shell explosion.  This was not noticed before the order was obeyed, with the result that many gallons of highly inflammable oil were squirted over the decks.  One hesitates to think what would have happened if this oil had become ignited.

Incidentally the actual nozzle of this flame-thrower was shot away just after the order to switch on had been given by the officer in charge, Lieut. A.L. Eastlake, attached R.E., who held the proud position of being the sole representative of the military on board the attacking vessels.  Eastlake was the only other occupant of the hut and I don't think he will easily forget the brief period that we experienced in that decidedly uncomfortable erection.  Sparks were flying about inside, but somehow, at the time, one didn't connect that pyrotechnic display with the fact that they emanated from the medley of missiles passing through it.  Curiously enough neither of us were hit, but our clothing sadly needed repair, which was common enough in shore fighting, but unusual afloat where the missiles are generally rather too large to pass through one's headgear without removing one's head en route.

The other flame thrower fared no better.  Commander Brock was in charge.  He lit the ignition apparatus and passed down the order to 'switch on'.  The whole outfit of oil ran its course, but unfortunately, at the very commencement, the ignition apparatus was shot away, with the result that the apparatus was converted into an oil thrower instead of emitting a flame."

Keyes (Zeebrugge and Ostend Dispatches, ed C Sandford Terry, p. 148):

85.  Experimental Party.
The account of the attack on the Mole would not be complete without reference to the contribution in officers and men made by a detachment from the Admiralty Experimental Station at Stratford, and the work done by them.  This detachment was commanded by Lieutenant Graham Hewett, RNVR, with Lieutenant A. L. Eastlake, R.E., second-in-command.  It contributed thirty-four men, all volunteers, for the working of the fixed and portable flame-throwers, phosphorus grenades, etc, either on board Vindictive, Iris II, and Daffodil, or with the various naval and marine parties landed on the Mole.  The fixed flame-throwers in Vindictive were put out of action by enemy shell fire.  The portable ones accompanied the seamen and marine landing parties, the personnel of the experimental party sharing the difficulties and dangers of the assault,  Lieutenant Hewett specially mentions Air-Mechanics W.H. Gough and W.G. Ryan for good service during the attack on the Mole.

Captain Hay is not mentioned in the index of either book.  Perhaps his MID was for the training phase rather the raid itself.

Hope this is helpful.

Mick

[bob lembke]

Hi, Terry and Mick;

As for the quotation from "Carpenter (The Blocking of Zeebrugge, pp. 198-199)"; can we assume, as the passage was written in the first person, that Carpenter was the second person in the "hut" containing the controls for the forward fixed flame thrower (FW)? Or was Carpenter just quoting a third party?

I have heard a bit about the British use or attempted use of FW at Zeebrugge, but this is more detail. Again, the experience with the large fixed FW here matched the general outcome when attempts were made to use these in trench warfare, these beasts were so large, so complicated, that it was improbable that they would survive and function in a combat situation. And since they carried so much flame oil, they were a real hazard to the users and vicinity. As the narrator suggests, the ship could have been burned up or exploded by these devices being damaged.

It is interesting that the Royal Navy was attempting to use FW long after the Army had given up on the concept. In 1917 The CO of the Special Brigade, Foulkes, not only ceased to attempt to use the large and portable FWs, but he even stored his large devices in the open so that they were exposed to the weather and corroded. Was Eastlake a veteran of the Special Brigade?

The use of even light FW in a tactical situation tends to be a rather dramatic event, and if they were employed in the fighting on the mole one would think that some participants' accounts would have mentioned this.    

I don't know too much about British FWs, but a good deal about these devices generally, and I will follow this thread and pitch in if I can participate usefully. I know the German FW jargon and technology and perhaps I can help make sense of any German descriptions of this engagement. The German flame unit gave many, many demonstrations (and possibly short courses) for the officers and NCOs of other units, so there may have been German officers at this location who were familiar with this weapon and might have left a useful narrative of this aspect of the attack.

Very interesting topic.

Bob Lembke

[Siege Gunner]

Bob,

Keyes (Despatches, Second Supplement to London Gazette, No 31189, p. 2525):

"Captain Carpenter was conning the ship from the port forward flame-thrower hut."


Pitt (Zeebrugge, p. 94):

"Rosoman's voice came regularly and imperturbably every minute through the voice-pipe from the conning-tower under the bridge, with the arranged routine question - 'Are you all right, sir ?'  -  and in the Flammenwerfer hut at the port end of the forebridge, which gave such an excellent view of the ship from bow nearly to stern, Carpenter could take due satisfaction from the smooth precision with which they had proceeded so far and which now would surely take them to a perfect landfall on the Mole."


Lake (Zeebrugge and Ostend Raids 1918, p. 104):

"Carpenter was conning the ship from the forward Flammenwerfer hut."


Checking the Keyes despatch quote re FW this morning in the original Second Supplement to the London Gazette (Wednesday 19 February 1919), I find that I accidentally omitted the middle initial of Lieutenant Hewett, who is properly cited in both sources as 'Lieutenant Graham S. Hewett R.N.V.R.'  -  which might just matter if there was more than one Lt Graham Hewett RNVR.  Pitt, incidentally, incorrectly refers to him as 'Hewlett'.


'How We Twisted the Dragon's Tail' (Percival Haslam, Hutchinson, 1918) has no index, and I couldn't readily find any refs to FW, but there is a photograph (below) opposite p. 33.  Incidentally, this book also contains a 'complete list' of casualties for the Zeebrugge and Ostend raids (unfortunately all in together) and for the second Ostend raid.


The 2006 programme of exhibitions at IWM(N) includes (October) "HMS Vindictive flamethrower.  Made by J Morris & Sons, fire engineers from Manchester, the flamethrower was used aboard HMS Vindictive during the Zeebrugge Raid in 1918".

The subject of pyrotechnics of all kinds at Zeebrugge, and the leading role of the charismatic Brock, is certainly a fascinating one  -  but it doesn't seem to involve the Royal Marines, who are the subject of Dom's thread.  Is it within Terry's powers as a Mod to chop this discussion off the end of this thread and create it as a new topic ?

regards
Mick

Attached Files

•  Vindictive_FW.jpg   98.62K   1 downloads

[domwalsh]

Hi Duncan,
The role of Brock and his RNAS men at Zeebrugge is certainly most fascinating. I have a framed scroll with a list of all the casualties and a poem composed by someone at Stratford! There was a book about the experimental station at Stratford but I've never seen a copy. Doubtless the FAA have one.
I will gradually supply you with what I have on these men, which may hopefully lead to more files being opened. Perhaps you should write a book about them. Easier than the Marines, as only 36 formed part of the landing party.
Best for now,
Dom

[domwalsh]

On the subject of Lt Eastlake RE, I once read a letter at the National Archives from a woman (persumably his wife) lamenting the fact that he only got an MID. A letter in The Times from the same woman (Evelyn Eastlake) in 1944 notes his service at Zeebrugge and Russia and says: "He hearly lost his life from a flame projector while carrying out his work."  The News of the World (I don't have a date) notes: "Eastlake, knocked out for the time being, landed on a dead Bluejacket." The only other note I have is that he died in Chicago 6/4/60.
Does anyone know where his medals are?
I have a photo of him somewhere.
Dom

[domwalsh]

Dear Linz,
A nice photo indeed. However, the only Davidson I have listed as taking part in the raid is a Pte J.D. Davidson who was 23 at the time of the raid so that wouldn't tally with your granddad's age. This Davidson lived til 81 years and worked with Belgian resistance in Ww2.
Best Regards,
Dom

[Old Jack]

Hello Dom - Do you have anything on the following man please.

MERRITT, FRANK
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lance Corporal Regiment:
Royal Marine Light Infantry Unit Text: 4th R.M. Bn.
Age: 39
Date of Death: 23/04/1918
Service No: PLY/9984 Additional information:
Son of Mrs. E. Merritt, of Martyr Worthey, Winchester, Hants.
Served in Persian Gulf and South African Campaign.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: P. W. 40A.
Cemetery: DOVER (ST. JAMES'S) CEMETERY

Thank you
Old Jack

[domwalsh]

What you'd need to do, Linz, is  go the National Archives and look up the WW1 medal rolls in ADM171 series, which are alphabetical. That  would give you his service number and you could then look u his record of service in ADM159 series.
Best
Dom

[domwalsh]

Ref Pte Merritt

Hi there.
I don't have much more than you. I have a photo of his grave and I have a note that his role in the raid was a sick berth attendant with 12 Platoon, HMS Vindictive. I have a photo of 12 Platoon but can't post it as it takes up too much capacity. What's your interest? Is he a local man to you?
Best,
Dom

[domwalsh]

Hi Linz,
Sadly you can't access these things online. Only naval papers are online. Leave it with me. I'll see what I can do.
Dom

[domwalsh]

Linz,
My dad has got a copy made of the record of service. No sign of Zeebrugge participation, I'm afraid, though I'll check when I get it in front of me. Let me have your address and I'll post it off.
Regards,
Dom

[domwalsh]

No problem, consider it done. I believe he was entitled to a British War Medal and Victory Medal.
Dom

[Regulus 1]

Hi Dominic,

Received a very interesting package in the post !  Something to read the next weekend, thank you very, very much !

Best from Johan  

[stiletto_33853]

Dom,
Anything on Malcolm McDonald, Pte. RMLI, HMS Vindictive
Thomas Darby, Pte. RMLI, HMS Vindictive
William Frew, Gunner, RMA
All injured in the raid and sent to Queen Marys Hospital in Southend.

Andy

[domwalsh]

Hi Andy,
Haven't got much at all on any of them, I'm afraid. Interestingly, neither McDonald or Darby are on the original 4th Battalion muster compiled before the raid....at least not in my copy. Frew was also on the Vindictive.
Cheers,
Dom

[domwalsh]

Dear Tammy,
I've checked my records but unfortunately I don't have any record of him. There is not, as far as I am aware, a list of those who were on the blockships during the Zeebrugge. Have you looked at his record of service? If not, you can order it online using the following National Archives link. I've checked and he's there. It cost you £3.50. I have to say that most of the confirmed blockship people I know of have no mention of the raid or indeed the name of the ship on their service records. Most of them seem to have Vivid II as the ship, which was a shore base which they would have been attached to for administrative purposes. The only other option would be to check the Zeebrugge Association memberships lists. He wasn't on the original list, in about 1920, which I have. But I will contact a friend who some later lists by which time the membership had expanded hugely. Let me know how you get on with the record of service.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...y=*&queryType=1

Best regards,
Dom