32 replies to this topic

[Bill Woerlee]

Mates

I am searching for good contemporary photographs of Atawineh Rdige and the nearby environs. While writing the story of the 9th, the pix are a good way of getting some sort of perspective on the story. I might add that I have already searched the AWM and there is only one pic of the area but I already have that one - it was a common one collected by all the soldiers at the time. There is also another pic in the 11th LHR History. But that is all I have been able to locate.

Thanks in anticipation.

Cheers

Bill

[Geoff S]

Bill- I will have a look for you on the week-end.

Cheers
G

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

G'day mate

Onya

Cheers

Bill

[Geoff S]

Gidday Bill,

Sorry I was unable to locate a picture of Atawineh Ridge from my small photographic collection on the week-end , but I would have hoped to have found a photograph in one of my references, but alas not yet.

Cheers
G

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

G'day mate

Thanks heaps for trying. I know it is a long and thankless job - and frustrating when you can't find what you are looking for. Thanks none the less for thinking of me.

Cheers

Bill

[Geoff S]

No worries...I also started pulling out books,,but no luck.  I am running out of room again....All I did was create a mess...

What regiment/s were most likely to have been in the area? And I will focus specifically on books in that  area..

Cheers
G

P.S. Hey Bill I notice you are an 'Old Sweat.'.. I was trying to think of an Aussie equivalent and all I could come up with was 'Hard Case'..So are you one of those now el Captaino ??

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

G'day mate

The old sweat membership gives me the privilege to go where no ordinary member may go on this site - whoopty do - and to look down my nose at a mere Lieutenant.  

I was looking at the areas covered by the 4th & 3rd LHB's and the 5th Mounted Brigade - Yeomanry. I have already searched the books for the 4th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th. There is no book for the 12th as we both know. There are some pix in the 10th LH of cavalry posts in Philistia but they look more like Aseiferiyeh and the wadi in which the horses were secreted while the men attacked Atawineh Ridge.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

G'day mate

Here is the only other shot I have of the lay of land near Atawineh Ridge - this is when the ALH dug in after the disasterous attack.

 35.jpg   53.68K   16 downloads

The trench is freshly dug in a barley field.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

If you have a copy of the 11th LHR history then this pic will be familiar. This is the men of the 11th rushing the ridge.

 01.jpg   57.32K   14 downloads

In the distance you can see a couple men actually moving up the slope. It is an action shot taken during the engagement.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

This is a pic of Atawineh Ridge taken by Bert Schramm but in 1918 while he was at Deir el Belah.

 16_2a1a.jpg   90.71K   15 downloads

It still looks like a difficult objective and all the more remarkable that more men weren't lost in the conflict.

Cheers

Bill

[Geoff S]

Yeah they are nice photographs Bill,,I was just looking that last shot in the 11th's history a couple of minutes ago. Gee the reprint photographs in that book are are shocking quality- most of them a quite dark.

And I can see how the first photograph does not assist you much with the lay of the land. I assume the first shot is the one you mentioned in your earlier post that was swapped around between the men? It's a nice close up photograph none the less,,which I always find fascinating...


Cheers
G

[Bill Woerlee]

And finally

Atawineh Ridge

 atawinehridge1a2.jpg   99.07K   12 downloads

The map.

Cheers

Bill

[Geoff S]

mate you added another photograph into your posts,,sorry if my post is confusing , but the only way i think you are going to get a feel for the terrain is with a topographical map..

G

[Geoff S]

****** me you have a map,,i wish you could post slower,,you are making me look silly...

Where is the map sourced from?

g

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

Mate, it was my plan to get you outfoxed. I didn't realise you were posting at the same time.

Got the map from the AWM, a 1:40,000 map. It was great for giving the specifics of the area. I'll post two more maps - one really close up on Atawineh Ridge and the other a satellite map.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

This is the area in which the 3rd and 4th LHB's occupied during Gaza 2.

 50.jpg   74.12K   16 downloads

The map was produced after Gaza 2 - the reference to Tank Redoubt is a dead give away.

Where you see the ridge at the point marked 36, that is where the 11th attacked Atawineh Ridge as you see in the photograph posted above.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

As luck would have it, this is from an Israeli site so ignore the Hebrew.

 amudanan_satellite1a.jpg   72.22K   11 downloads

This gives a great idea of the topography experienced by the men around Atawineh Ridge during Gaza 2.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

And one last one - straight out of the British Official War History.

 gaza20007a1.jpg   43.93K   13 downloads

This is a great schematic diagram of the action.

And you can't see any action from the Hebron Road. True.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

I hope all that clears things up for you mate.

I need lots of maps and pix to get my head around the descriptions. Here is the 9th LHR War Diary account of 19 April 1917:

"The Regiment moved out with the Brigade at 2130 and proceeded via Wadi Sheria to the vicinity of Aseiferiyeh where the Regiment dismounted the horses being left under Ragless, Captain BB. At 0330 a line was taken up 10th Light Horse Regiment on left joining the 4th Light Horse Brigade. 9th Light Horse Regiment on right touching the 5th Mounted Brigade and the 8th Light Horse Regiment in reserve. At 0400 the line advanced on a bearing of 65 degrees and by daylight was well up onto the high ground and the first Turkish redoubt. A heavy fire was opened up on our lines. In the first hours the advance was held up. On the left of Aseiferiyeh the infantry were heavily engaged and an intense bombardment was going out. About 0900 white flags were observed on the Turkish trench directly to our front and the whole line advanced but owing to the great weight carried by the men [240 round SAA] slowly the position was taken with about 20 prisoners and by 0900 the line was straightened out and the enemy then opened up an intense artillery fire on our lines and a good many casualties were sustained.
0930 From the ridge the line pushed slowly forward towards the wadi directly beneath the main Atawineh position but the Yeomanry on the right were not coming sufficiently round the flank to enable the advance to be carried on. At 1200 the order was received to swing the Regiment round on its left flank, the line to face north. The 5th Mounted Brigade was also to swing round preliminary to an attack on the main Atawineh position being pushed home. On the turning movement commanding an intense rifle, machine gun and shell fire was concentrated on our line and after some time it was forced to retire behind the first Turkish redoubt that had been taken in the morning. At this period the enemy artillery was raining shells at our troops causing a large number of casualties. At about 1400 the line was established about 500 yards from a strong enemy position. Some New Zealanders and Bucks Yeomanry holding a position to our right front. At about 1630 a number of Turks left their trenches and commenced to advance on the right and were again driven back to their trenches. A constant fire was kept up by both sides until dark when orders were received to withdraw to the horses at 1945. The withdrawal was successfully completed and the Brigade returned to El Munkeileh where the horses were watered. An outpost line was taken up from Aseiferiyeh to El Munkeileh the 9th Light Horse Regiment on the left and the 8th Light Horse Regiment on the right. Throughout the day the fighting had been particularly constant and intense. The enemy artillery doing a lot of damage. In all we sustained nine Other Ranks killed, 5 Officers and 61 Other Ranks wounded."

Try turning that into a 3,000 word account that is easily followed and gives the reader the feeling that they are there. That's why I need the pix. All the pix I can of this action.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Mates

Now for the line of attack commencing at 0400 on 19 April 1917 - this is the disposition of the troops at 0400 and where they were meant to go.

 atawinehridge1e.jpg   97.73K   13 downloads

Reality produced an entirely different outcome.

Cheers

Bill

[Geoff S]

Bill- I am not that good on Second Gaza- as the 2nd Bde was not involved. –fortunately…

Never really focussed to much time & energy on the engagement  but, you have already got a heap of info here mate. you have been a busy beaver...

Have you tried finding other accounts not of the battle other than what you have listed in the respective unit histories you listed above? I will have a look for you if you want. I imagine you might find some interesting bits not mentioned in the books you have identified. you might need to look further a field to get the best result.

Cheers
G

[stevebecker]

Bill,

Mate, if I may the postioning on the 3rd Camel Bn is incorrect.

The 1st and 3rd Camel Bn's lined below the Sh Abbas ragde on the low ground.

The 1st Bn left and the 3rd Bn right both Bn's advanced into the area between the Tank Redoubt and the Waddi Shan. Surprisingly there are no orders to the Camel Bn's to directly assult all redoubts.

During the attack two companies of the 1st Bn followed the tank "HMLS Nutty" and ended up in the Tank Redoubt while both the 4th and 1st Companies ended up in the open area inbetween the Tank and Jack and Jill Redoubts.

This attack by the 2nd and 3rd companies was not surpose to happen as the British were to capture the Tank redoubt, our companies were to follow threw to capture the ground behind Tank redoubt.

The 3rd Bn kept alinement with the 1st Bn but underfire the 12th company crossed the Wadi Shan and assulted the J & J redoubts, while the 11th company still kept alined with the 4th Co and ended up next the the 4th Co in the open area between the J &J redoubts and Tank redoubt. Again no orders were given to assult the J & J redoubts untill the Bn became pinned by fire forcing the 12th company to cross the waddi.

The 14th Company (3rd Bn) remained in Reserve of the 12th and 11th companies and only suported them.

Your line of the 3rd Bn is more for the 1st Bn I'll send you a correction to your map if I can work how to do it?

Also remember a Sqn of the 11th LHR was providing the alinement with the Camel Bde and later joined the attack on J & J Redoubt.

Cheers

S.B

[Bill Woerlee]

Steve

G'day mate

I think you might have misunderstood the comments on the map. These were jump off points and projected lines of march, not the actual lines of march. The chaos that resulted from that is totally different. I am still working on that map to pull together all the disperate threads on how it worked.

However, that being said, I appreciate the additional summary - it makes pulling together the disparate accounts a lot easier - I now have the participation of the ICC and their deployment.

Cheers

Bill


Cheer

[Bill Woerlee]

Geoff

G'day mate

P.S. Hey Bill I notice you are an 'Old Sweat.'.. I was trying to think of an Aussie equivalent and all I could come up with was 'Hard Case'..So are you one of those now el Captaino ??

You might like to re-think your comment.

Major to you, young feller.

Cheers

Bill

[Geoff S]

Geoff

G'day mate
You might like to re-think your comment.

Major to you, young feller.

Cheers

Bill

Is your 'pukka majority' rank substantive sir?  The 'heads' promote their favourites above the rank of 'three star wallah' on the basis of table manners, education or social status olde boy. And your batman is still correcting your spelling mistakes in the Squadron R.O's  ...So good luck with the knife & fork ...

Anyway, I would rather be a 'two star wallah' and stay with my troop mates   sir...

Lieut G