Jump to content


Remembered Today:

Photo

Black and Tans


160 replies to this topic

#26 Stanley_C_Jenkins

Stanley_C_Jenkins

    Major

  • Old Sweats
  • 375 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Witney

Posted 27 October 2009 - 07:05 PM

I've seen the IMDB listing, but it does not include the "bit players" who made up the squad of doomed Auxiliaries - at least one of whom later turned up in the TV series "Soldier Soldier". As I remember it, they met their end buried in sand up to their necks on a beach as the tide was coming in!

In passing, there is some very detailed information on the Irish "Living History" site which has been mentioned. I think "Bannerman" re-enacts the Black & Tan campaign - and he has a good knowledge of uniforms and equipment.

#27 rob elliott

rob elliott

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 528 posts

Posted 27 October 2009 - 11:19 PM

Stanley,

Haven't heard of this play, but then wouldn't watch it if i had.
Irish fictional history always got fantasy spin on it.
Are you familiar with the [true] story of Captain Alen Lendrum MC. Officer of the Ulster Division, originally from Donegal [i think].
Buried by the IRA on a beach to be drown as the tide came in but it didn't reach him so they dug him up in the morning, killed him and threw his body on a manure heap.

Rob.

#28 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 October 2009 - 11:38 PM

I have a framed photograph in my collection of "N" Company, Auxiliary Division, R.I.C. All those in the photograph are named, it has many ex soldiers and officers including 3 Military Medal winners, a DCM winner, seven Military Cross winners and a DSO holder.

#29 inishowen

inishowen

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 243 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ireland
  • Interests:Irelands involvement in WW1. The Somme. The Battle of Messines. Gallipoli. Naval loses around the Irish coast. CWGC burials in Donegal. Remembrance.

Posted 28 October 2009 - 10:03 AM

Rob -
'Irish fictional history always got fantasy spin on it' ?

1. Surely all fiction has a 'fantasy' element?
2. Is there such a thing as 'fictional history'? Do you mean fiction set in a historical context?

#30 chrisharley9

chrisharley9

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 6,473 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:March, Isle of Ely
  • Interests:Norfolk Regt, Cambridgeshire Regt, Western Front, Medical Staff of All Nationalities, Non Commemorated War Dead

Posted 28 October 2009 - 10:04 AM

Re Lendrum

Name: LENDRUM
Initials: A C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Captain
Regiment/Service: Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
Age: 34
Date of Death: 27/10/1920
Awards: M C and Bar
Additional information: Resident Magistrate in Co. Clare. Son of George and Netta Lendrum, of Corkil, Kilskeery.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: West of Church.
Cemetery: KILSKEERY CHURCH OF IRELAND CHURCHYARD



#31 Stanley_C_Jenkins

Stanley_C_Jenkins

    Major

  • Old Sweats
  • 375 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Witney

Posted 28 October 2009 - 10:16 AM

"Troubles" was adapted from the book of the same name by J.G.Farrell, an Englishman (Liverpudlian), which was well-received; it contains much less IRA propaganda than more recent offerings such as The Wind in the Barley. Jerome Flynn was the actor who later appeared in Soldier Soldier whose name I could not remember.

Regarding "High Wood's" comments, members of the RIC Auxiliary Division were chosen for their good war records, and many of them were highly-decorated veterans of the Great War. Although the "jury is still out" on their alleged bad conduct, I am slowly coming to the conclusion that they have been made scapegoats. They were certainly not a Protestant murder squad - many of them were Roman Catholics, and some of them were Irishmen.

#32 old owl

old owl

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,376 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire, uk

Posted 28 October 2009 - 06:55 PM

QUOTE (high wood @ Oct 27 2009, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have a framed photograph in my collection of "N" Company, Auxiliary Division, R.I.C. All those in the photograph are named, it has many ex soldiers and officers including 3 Military Medal winners, a DCM winner, seven Military Cross winners and a DSO holder.



Hi High Wood,

Your group photo sounds very interesting, I wonder if by any chance it includes a picture of P.G.Handford(Percival George Handford)
He served with the Devon Regiment, was commissioned into the Wiltshire Regiment and was attached to the 1/4th Berkshires, with whom he won the M.C. in Italy, L.G. 2/12/18 page 14242. He was gazetted out of the service 20/4/20 and became a temporary cadet with the Auxiliaries on the 2/12/20. I am not sure exactly how long he served in Ireland or what date your group was taken?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards, Robert

#33 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 October 2009 - 11:24 PM

I think that P.G.Handford may have served in another company. He is not in the photograph.

The named gallantry winners are as follows:

DSO
S/Leader J.C.D. Hedley

Military Cross
T/Cadet G.H. Arrowsmith
T/Cader W.J. Duffy
T/Cadet R.M. Boyle
T/Cadet A.E. Owins
S/Leader R. England
S/Leader J.C.D. Hedley
S/Leader W. Watkins
2nd D.I. R.D. Utting

DCM
T/Cadet H.J. Roe

Military Medal
T/Cadet D.L. O'Sullivan
T/Cader V. Chard
S/Leader C.H. Rawlings

#34 old owl

old owl

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,376 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire, uk

Posted 28 October 2009 - 11:36 PM

QUOTE (high wood @ Oct 28 2009, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that P.G.Handford may have served in another company. He is not in the photograph.

The named gallantry winners are as follows:

DSO
S/Leader J.C.D. Hedley

Military Cross
T/Cadet G.H. Arrowsmith
T/Cader W.J. Duffy
T/Cadet R.M. Boyle
T/Cadet A.E. Owins
S/Leader R. England
S/Leader J.C.D. Hedley
S/Leader W. Watkins
2nd D.I. R.D. Utting

DCM
T/Cadet H.J. Roe

Military Medal
T/Cadet D.L. O'Sullivan
T/Cader V. Chard
S/Leader C.H. Rawlings



Thanks for looking, and for the names, it's always worth a try. Robert

#35 ADRIAN58

ADRIAN58

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 188 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The City on the Hill
  • Interests:interest in the 13th Batt, Royal Irish Rifles The Down Volunteers and the Somme.

Posted 30 October 2009 - 09:40 PM

P Handford is shown with a Service number 79853. Which would indicate he joined the Royal Irish Constabulary sometime between 21/02/1921 - 11/05/1921 when Service numbers 79001 - 81000 applied.



#36 Dez

Dez

    Second Lieutenant

  • Members2
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Auxiliary Division, RIC and the 2400 ex-comissioned officers, mostly great war veterans, who joined the Division.

Posted 01 November 2009 - 11:50 PM

Hello Old Owl
I have been doing some digging into the Auxiliary Division and some of the 2400 odd members ----- regarding Lieut. P.G. Handford, M.C., his Auxiliary number was 1061, and he was a Section Leader in "I" Company. He joined as a Temporary Cadet on 17/11/20 and was promoted on 21/2/21, he initally signed on for 6 months and re-engaged for a further 6 months. Hope this helps, sorry no picture. Dez.

#37 Dez

Dez

    Second Lieutenant

  • Members2
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Auxiliary Division, RIC and the 2400 ex-comissioned officers, mostly great war veterans, who joined the Division.

Posted 02 November 2009 - 12:38 AM

Hello High Wood
Would it be possible to obtain a copy of your photograph of "N" company, Auxiliary Division, RIC and, or, a copy of the personnel list. Your photograph would appear to be dated after 13/8/21, the date of Lieut. C.H. Rawling's promotion. I can be reached at auxiesearch@hotmail.com
Dez

#38 rob elliott

rob elliott

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 528 posts

Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:19 PM

High Wood,

Do you have anymore info on the Officers in the photo. I was wondering if R.M.Boyle was Captain Robert Mathew Boyle MC, of the 10th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. Came from Portrush, Co Antrim. Think he was an Officer in the 'B' specials later and i have him on the 10th Skins Old Comrades list into the 1950's.
Will probably have a photo of him somewhere.

Dez,

Are you familier with story of two Auxillaries that passed information on to Michael Collins?

Also anyone familier with Eugene Igoe of the DMP who ran a secret service squad, similar to the Cairo gang, and was apparently very effective.
Igoe's papers are in Kew, including his death certificate, although i don't believe he became a casualty of republican action.
Possibly a requirement for his wife to obtain a pension.

Rob



#39 mhifle

mhifle

    Brigadier-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 2,842 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Yaxley, Peterborough or Offshore Norway

Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:49 PM

Hi,
Here is a list of the locations of the Auxillary Companies from 'The Anglo-Irish War, The Troubles of 1913-1922' by Peter Cottrell.

Regards Mark

Attached Files



#40 old owl

old owl

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,376 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire, uk

Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:10 PM

QUOTE (Dez @ Nov 1 2009, 11:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello Old Owl
I have been doing some digging into the Auxiliary Division and some of the 2400 odd members ----- regarding Lieut. P.G. Handford, M.C., his Auxiliary number was 1061, and he was a Section Leader in "I" Company. He joined as a Temporary Cadet on 17/11/20 and was promoted on 21/2/21, he initally signed on for 6 months and re-engaged for a further 6 months. Hope this helps, sorry no picture. Dez.



Hi Dez,

I have just seen your post, thanks for the info, very useful addition to the details which I have regarding him. He must have seen quite a bit of action? during those troubled times. I assume he must have enjoyed his job as a 'dreaded auxiliary' particularly as he re-engaged for a further 6 months, or perhaps it was the pay and the camaraderie that kept him there. Who knows?

Thanks again, Robert

#41 old owl

old owl

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,376 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire, uk

Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:19 PM

QUOTE (ADRIAN58 @ Oct 30 2009, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
P Handford is shown with a Service number 79853. Which would indicate he joined the Royal Irish Constabulary sometime between 21/02/1921 - 11/05/1921 when Service numbers 79001 - 81000 applied.



Hi Adrian,

A little confusing, P G Handford seems to have two Service Nos, 79853 and 1061, or were they adjusted after first joining? I am sure that there must be a simple explanation?

Anyway thanks for your input; 'the plot thickens'!! as they say.

Regards, Robert

#42 old owl

old owl

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,376 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire, uk

Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE (Dez @ Nov 1 2009, 11:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello Old Owl
I have been doing some digging into the Auxiliary Division and some of the 2400 odd members ----- regarding Lieut. P.G. Handford, M.C., his Auxiliary number was 1061, and he was a Section Leader in "I" Company. He joined as a Temporary Cadet on 17/11/20 and was promoted on 21/2/21, he initally signed on for 6 months and re-engaged for a further 6 months. Hope this helps, sorry no picture. Dez.



Hi Dez,

I have just seen the post by Mark, thanks Mark, with the locations of the Auxiliary Companies. This does not show an 'I' Company, could it be 'J' Company that Handford served as a Section Leader with?

Regards, Robert

#43 Dez

Dez

    Second Lieutenant

  • Members2
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Auxiliary Division, RIC and the 2400 ex-comissioned officers, mostly great war veterans, who joined the Division.

Posted 04 November 2009 - 06:50 AM

Hello Old Owl
On joining the Auxiliary Division, recruits were given Aux. Div. numbers starting at no.1 in the order that they joined. It would appear that they were given 5 digit RIC numbers as well. In the Aux. Div. register at Kew (H.O.184 - 50/51) the first recruit, no.1 received the RIC no. 72096 as well. This practice in the register was terminated at no. 72595, allocated to Aux. recruit no. 237. To find RIC numbers higher than that, allocated to Aux. Div. members, one would need to consult the separate RIC personnel records.


The list from Peter Cottrell's book posted by Mark, has a few blanks, and "I" is not the only company missing from the list. Other compamies missing are "K", "N", and "P". Mark's posting is to be commended for making more information available, on a subject that frankly, is difficult to research. There is no doubt that your man belongs in "I" Company.

#44 Dez

Dez

    Second Lieutenant

  • Members2
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Auxiliary Division, RIC and the 2400 ex-comissioned officers, mostly great war veterans, who joined the Division.

Posted 04 November 2009 - 07:12 AM

Hello Rob Elliott
I can verify that Cadet R.M. Boyle in "N" Company of the Aux. Div. is a Captain R.M. Boyle, M.C., Aux. no. 1635.

On your other point, yes I have heard of an Auxiliary Cadet belonging to "C" Company selling weapons and information to the IRA, and another one in "F" Company providing photographs and information to the IRA as well, but I dont have details to check out these stories.

#45 old owl

old owl

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,376 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire, uk

Posted 04 November 2009 - 08:38 AM

QUOTE (Dez @ Nov 4 2009, 06:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello Old Owl
On joining the Auxiliary Division, recruits were given Aux. Div. numbers starting at no.1 in the order that they joined. It would appear that they were given 5 digit RIC numbers as well. In the Aux. Div. register at Kew (H.O.184 - 50/51) the first recruit, no.1 received the RIC no. 72096 as well. This practice in the register was terminated at no. 72595, allocated to Aux. recruit no. 237. To find RIC numbers higher than that, allocated to Aux. Div. members, one would need to consult the separate RIC personnel records.


The list from Peter Cottrell's book posted by Mark, has a few blanks, and "I" is not the only company missing from the list. Other compamies missing are "K", "N", and "P". Mark's posting is to be commended for making more information available, on a subject that frankly, is difficult to research. There is no doubt that your man belongs in "I" Company.


Hi Dez,

Thanks for clearing what is definitely a very 'murky' area, in more ways than one!! I suppose that this makes it all the more interesting from a 'researching challenge' point of view.

Thanks again, Robert

#46 ADRIAN58

ADRIAN58

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 188 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The City on the Hill
  • Interests:interest in the 13th Batt, Royal Irish Rifles The Down Volunteers and the Somme.

Posted 04 November 2009 - 01:28 PM

Hi Robert,

Auxiliary Division No 1061 would have been allocated between the dates 23/07/1920 - 15/01/1921. On enlistment many ADRIC were not only given an Auxiliary number but also an RIC registered number. The Auxiliaries rank was referred to as 'Temporary Cadets' on a short service contract. Which could be extended. Many 'Temporary Cadets' obtained promotion to 'District Inspector' within the RIC which would possibly account for the dual numbering on leaving the auxiliaries.

The initial force of Auxiliaries were based at the Curragh Camp but 2 Companies were later transferred to a depot at Beggars Bush, Dublin. Companies of 100 men were set up also at Dublin Castle, North Wall, Dublin and North Dublin Union. Companies were set up in the rural areas at Boyle, Castleblaney, Cork (Moore's Hotel), Dunmanway, Galway (Lennaboy Hse), Innistioge, Killaloe later Corofin, Lissonfield House, Waterford, Macroom (Macroon Castle), Tralee (Castle Sanderson, Wattle Bridge) and Trim.

There is a Robert Boyle shown with a Service number 82508 which would indicate a joining date between 11/05/1921 - 31/08/1922.

#47 Peter Mc

Peter Mc

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 November 2009 - 01:48 PM

All Auxiliaries were given RIC service numbers, they did not terminate at no.237
It does seem though that the Auxiliary numbering system was re-organised at some point, as they same man can appear with 2 ADRIC numbers.

#48 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 November 2009 - 08:18 PM

Captain R.M. Boyle M.C. and in front from Left to right, Section Leader R.H. Costigan and Section Leader S. Oliver.

Attached Files



#49 rob elliott

rob elliott

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 528 posts

Posted 04 November 2009 - 09:54 PM

Dez,High Wood,

I think that is Robert Mathew Boyle of the 10th Inniskillings.
He signed the Ulster Covenant in 1912 in Portrush County Antrim, giving his address as 'the Manse, Killala, County Mayo'.
He would have been aged about 17 then.
In the 1911 census of Ireland he is in Mullaferry Co Mayo, near Killala. aged 16. Born County Londonderry, son of a Presbyterian Minister.
He is listed on the Presbyterian Church First War Roll of honour of Sons of Ministers as having-
Served 2nd Btn Inniskillings, MC, wounded twice, POW. Address in Mayo.

As he was with the 2nd Skins, having served with the 10th Btn, i assume he was captured during the March 1918 offensive.

Where did 'N' company serve? anywhere near Mayo?

In the photo Oliver looks a bit of a tough nut!

Dez,

In the book 'the squad' by T.Ryle Dwyer i'm sure he names the Auxillaries that passed information on. Will have a read through.

Has anyone seen the article on-line in the 'Jerusalem Quarterly' summer 2009. It is about auxillaries serving in the Palastine Police Force. Unfortunately the author keeps refering to them as 'Black and tans'. However there are a few named, with details of what happened to them.
One interesting name is of an auxillary called Duff. The author says it is from his use of violence that we get the expression 'to Duff someone up' ie 'give hime a Duffing'.
Used to use that expression a lot when we were kids.
Anyone else heard wether thats got any grounds for being true?

Rob



#50 Dez

Dez

    Second Lieutenant

  • Members2
  • 76 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Auxiliary Division, RIC and the 2400 ex-comissioned officers, mostly great war veterans, who joined the Division.

Posted 05 November 2009 - 06:03 AM

Hello Peter Mc

Sure, RIC service numbers existed for all Auxiliaries, I must not have been clear in pointing out that they stopped recording them in the Auxiliary Division Register, at no. 237, Cadet P de B. Smith.

Dez