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#51 Reg Egan

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (stevebec @ Oct 29 2003, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have a bloke by the name Ernest Arthur Egan from Dublin Ireland who after the war joinned the Irish Police.

He had served in the 6th Bn AIF, and at Gallipoli before joinning the Camel Corps and finished the war as SGT in the 15th ALHR.

His record shows he had two brothers killed in the British Army (I surpose an Irish Regt) during the war but I don't know their names.

He toke his discharge in Ireland post war from the AIF to gain a postion in the Irish Constablary.

His record showns him to be a good soldier with few crimes during the war.

S.B


#52 ba.eight

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 10:31 PM

If I can offer some help Re: some of the companies..

K was based first in Cork City and was the company responsible taking part in the burning of Cork. It was moved to Dunmanway and billeted at the Dunmanway Union. After a series of incidents it was wound down with a proportion of the men transferring to N company which was based in Trim, Co Meath. Most I believe were transferred to K company, which took over at Dunmanway.

I see Cottrell lists D as based in Dublin - not so. The company was based in Galway city. An early company was Lt Col Guard (he may have been the second as I think Crozier replaced the first). Guard had a v distinguished record in WW1 and beyond. After command of D co, he was promoted to 2i/c of ADRIC, serving under the previous incumbent Brig Gen Wood who took over as Cmdt on Crozier's departure.

I have an idea that I was based in Dublin certainly for some of the time and may have a report to that effect. One of its commanders was Adrian Hulse who was c5'6" and weighed c 15 stone. Don't suppose he leapt over too many walls in full kit!

NB Q company is a curiosity. Set up c April to police the North Wall docks against arms smuggling, it had a higher proportion of cadets who had not held commissions including some from the merchant marine. In other words ADRIC wasn't as socially exclusive as supposed and placed value on technical expertise

ba.eight



QUOTE (Dez @ Nov 4 2009, 06:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello Old Owl
On joining the Auxiliary Division, recruits were given Aux. Div. numbers starting at no.1 in the order that they joined. It would appear that they were given 5 digit RIC numbers as well. In the Aux. Div. register at Kew (H.O.184 - 50/51) the first recruit, no.1 received the RIC no. 72096 as well. This practice in the register was terminated at no. 72595, allocated to Aux. recruit no. 237. To find RIC numbers higher than that, allocated to Aux. Div. members, one would need to consult the separate RIC personnel records.


The list from Peter Cottrell's book posted by Mark, has a few blanks, and "I" is not the only company missing from the list. Other compamies missing are "K", "N", and "P". Mark's posting is to be commended for making more information available, on a subject that frankly, is difficult to research. There is no doubt that your man belongs in "I" Company.



#53 ba.eight

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 10:35 PM



STOP PRESS: CORRECTION. Apologies for typo and causing confusion. The name of the company which took over in Dunmanway from K company was in fact 'O' company.

ba.eight







QUOTE (ba.eight @ Jan 23 2010, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If I can offer some help Re: some of the companies..

K was based first in Cork City and was the company responsible taking part in the burning of Cork. It was moved to Dunmanway and billeted at the Dunmanway Union. After a series of incidents it was wound down with a proportion of the men transferring to N company which was based in Trim, Co Meath. Most I believe were transferred to K company, which took over at Dunmanway.

I see Cottrell lists D as based in Dublin - not so. The company was based in Galway city. An early company was Lt Col Guard (he may have been the second as I think Crozier replaced the first). Guard had a v distinguished record in WW1 and beyond. After command of D co, he was promoted to 2i/c of ADRIC, serving under the previous incumbent Brig Gen Wood who took over as Cmdt on Crozier's departure.

I have an idea that I was based in Dublin certainly for some of the time and may have a report to that effect. One of its commanders was Adrian Hulse who was c5'6" and weighed c 15 stone. Don't suppose he leapt over too many walls in full kit!

NB Q company is a curiosity. Set up c April to police the North Wall docks against arms smuggling, it had a higher proportion of cadets who had not held commissions including some from the merchant marine. In other words ADRIC wasn't as socially exclusive as supposed and placed value on technical expertise

ba.eight



#54 ba.eight

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 10:41 PM

Rob,

N company was based in Trim in county Meath

ba.eight


QUOTE (rob elliott @ Nov 4 2009, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dez,High Wood,

I think that is Robert Mathew Boyle of the 10th Inniskillings.
He signed the Ulster Covenant in 1912 in Portrush County Antrim, giving his address as 'the Manse, Killala, County Mayo'.
He would have been aged about 17 then.
In the 1911 census of Ireland he is in Mullaferry Co Mayo, near Killala. aged 16. Born County Londonderry, son of a Presbyterian Minister.
He is listed on the Presbyterian Church First War Roll of honour of Sons of Ministers as having-
Served 2nd Btn Inniskillings, MC, wounded twice, POW. Address in Mayo.

As he was with the 2nd Skins, having served with the 10th Btn, i assume he was captured during the March 1918 offensive.

Where did 'N' company serve? anywhere near Mayo?

In the photo Oliver looks a bit of a tough nut!

Dez,

In the book 'the squad' by T.Ryle Dwyer i'm sure he names the Auxillaries that passed information on. Will have a read through.

Has anyone seen the article on-line in the 'Jerusalem Quarterly' summer 2009. It is about auxillaries serving in the Palastine Police Force. Unfortunately the author keeps refering to them as 'Black and tans'. However there are a few named, with details of what happened to them.
One interesting name is of an auxillary called Duff. The author says it is from his use of violence that we get the expression 'to Duff someone up' ie 'give hime a Duffing'.
Used to use that expression a lot when we were kids.
Anyone else heard wether thats got any grounds for being true?

Rob



#55 ba.eight

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 10:46 PM

Dez,

I've definitely come across cadets with higher ADRIC numbers who also have RIC numbers. For example Major Mackinnon, cdr of H company (later assassinated playing golf) was ADRIC no 917 and RIC number 80776. There are others.

I did notice that the records seem to hold different detail in various parts which makes life more difficult.

ba.eight




QUOTE (Dez @ Nov 5 2009, 06:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello Peter Mc

Sure, RIC service numbers existed for all Auxiliaries, I must not have been clear in pointing out that they stopped recording them in the Auxiliary Division Register, at no. 237, Cadet P de B. Smith.

Dez



#56 Dez

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 06:25 AM

Hello ba.eight,

Clarification - we don't mean the R.I.C. numbers for Auxiliary Cadets don't exist, just the fact that you won't find them in the Auxiliary Division registers after no. 237, because they are not there. The register pages are divided into vertical columns, column (1) Aux. no. - column (2) Registered no. (ie. R.I.C. no.). Around page 20 you come to Aux. no. 238 in column (1) and column (2) is blank. In fact column no. (2) is blank from here to the end of the register.

Dez

#57 Arnhem44

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (ba.eight @ Jan 23 2010, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
K was based first in Cork City and was the company responsible taking part in the burning of Cork. It was moved to Dunmanway and billeted at the Dunmanway Union. After a series of incidents it was wound down with a proportion of the men transferring to N company which was based in Trim, Co Meath. Most I believe were transferred to K company, which took over at Dunmanway.


Does anyone know where the Dunmanway Union was in the town,I'm not familiar with this.Also would anyone have any photos of the Black and Tans in any of the towns in West Cork,Bandon,Clonakilty,Skibbereen etc

#58 HERITAGE PLUS

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:31 PM

Arnhem

See: http://www.workhouse...Dunmanway.shtml

Dave

#59 bullyman

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 10:50 PM

Clutching at straws but is there by any chance a definitive list of members of the B&T's. I have a name and a photo but nothing else at all.


#60 Arnhem44

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 10:59 AM

Dave thank you kindly for the info above,as many times as I've been in Dunmanway I have yet to see those buildings,Something I must look into.I had a look at the Clonakilty Workhouse while I was on that site and also did not know about the entrance buildings been burned in 1916,I do know that the Court house and Barracks were burned out a few years later.Regarding the photos of the Black and Tans,I went to a living history show in Kinsale last summer and one of the lads there had an album with photos of these men just before the burning of Cork and other various photos of them around the county,he said it came from a private collection,just wondered is there any such website that contains photos like this?.Once again thanks for that Dave,one learns something new everyday.

#61 Dez

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 05:15 AM

Hello Arnhem44,

My attempt at giving directions might help to pinpoint the Workhouse for you next time you are in Dunmanway and feel like looking for it. When you make your way to the town square, (which as you will know, is a triangle) proceed along Main street, right through the town (this is the road that goes to Bandon). On your left a large church will appear, (set back from the street) as the road curves to the right, a little bit further on you will cross over the Bandon River. Turn left on to the next road that appears on your left hand side. If you drive along this road for a bit, the former Dunmanway Union Workhouse will show up on your right hand side, and you can drive right in, as it is now used as a hospital. Re. the two photographs on the website that Dave posted, the origional entrance and admin block looks just like the pic, but the part of the old central spine has now been re-furbished. A good part of the origional boundary wall is still intact as well (as of June 09). Good hunting.

Dez

#62 ba.eight

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 10:57 PM

Arnhem44,

Any chance of contacting the gent with the Auxie picsfrom Kinsale? Came across a few myself and curious to know where his originated from.

ba.eight






QUOTE (Arnhem44 @ Jan 29 2010, 10:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dave thank you kindly for the info above,as many times as I've been in Dunmanway I have yet to see those buildings,Something I must look into.I had a look at the Clonakilty Workhouse while I was on that site and also did not know about the entrance buildings been burned in 1916,I do know that the Court house and Barracks were burned out a few years later.Regarding the photos of the Black and Tans,I went to a living history show in Kinsale last summer and one of the lads there had an album with photos of these men just before the burning of Cork and other various photos of them around the county,he said it came from a private collection,just wondered is there any such website that contains photos like this?.Once again thanks for that Dave,one learns something new everyday.



#63 Arnhem44

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 11:55 PM

Dez thanks for the info,I've passed the hospital countless times and never knew that about the place,will have to have a look around the next time I'm over there.I've been looking into local casualties from WW1 and have taken many photos of the headstones in the West Cork area but as time goes on a much bigger picture is growing on the things that happened around here.

Hi Ba.eight, when i saw the photos he had them in an album and refused to even let me handle them,he said they came from a private collection and I myself don't know anymore than that,I also recall he owned an old RIC shotgun.What I do remember him telling me is that he was currently working in Charles Fort in Kinsale so I'm sure if you contacted them directly they could put you on to him,the photos included the men that were involved in the burning of Cork.The phone number can be found here, http://www.discoveri...uristItemID=370
,hope this is of help,if not you could try this site as he was one of the re-enactors there that day,these lads may also know him. http://livinghistory.ie/

#64 ba.eight

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 11:36 PM

Arnhem,

You're a gent. Thanks v much.

ba.eight



QUOTE (Arnhem44 @ Jan 30 2010, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dez thanks for the info,I've passed the hospital countless times and never knew that about the place,will have to have a look around the next time I'm over there.I've been looking into local casualties from WW1 and have taken many photos of the headstones in the West Cork area but as time goes on a much bigger picture is growing on the things that happened around here.

Hi Ba.eight, when i saw the photos he had them in an album and refused to even let me handle them,he said they came from a private collection and I myself don't know anymore than that,I also recall he owned an old RIC shotgun.What I do remember him telling me is that he was currently working in Charles Fort in Kinsale so I'm sure if you contacted them directly they could put you on to him,the photos included the men that were involved in the burning of Cork.The phone number can be found here, http://www.discoveri...uristItemID=370
,hope this is of help,if not you could try this site as he was one of the re-enactors there that day,these lads may also know him. http://livinghistory.ie/



#65 Simon_Fielding

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 02:31 PM

Any further suggestions for reading on the topic? I already have Bennett and 'Police Casualties' - shouldn't there be an Osprey volume on the Tans?

#66 ba.eight

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 10:45 PM

Simon,

Here's a few.

First the oldies which you'll have to search for on the likes of Amazon (try eBay too) or join the British Library:

Brig Gen Crozier's books - Ireland For Ever! (note title is 3 wrds not two and has exclamation mark) is entirely devoted to the subject. Also a chapter in Impressions and Recollections. Both published late 1920s to early 1930s

Douglas V Duff was a popular author of the 1930s to 1950s who served in the Black and Tans (not the Auxies) in Galway. Good first hand accounts in that part of his book Sword for Hire which was devoted to Ireland

It's worth checking out Republican accounts. Tom Barry's are very black and white but then he had been a British Army sergeant and was keen to establish his anti-British credentials. But Liam Deasy's Towards Ireland Free has an interestingly favourable account of the auxie platoon commander Francis Crake (ambushed and killed by Barry's force at Kilmichael). Also try Ernie O'Malley's On Another Man's Wound. He was interred at Dublin Castle with F company.

For contemporary accounts, try Prof Michael Hopkinson's The Irish War of Independence, Michael T Foy's Michael Collins's Intelligence War and (ex?)RUC man Richard Abbott's invaluable Police Casualties in Ireland 1919-1922


Hope this helps!


ba.eight











QUOTE (Simon_Fielding @ Feb 1 2010, 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Any further suggestions for reading on the topic? I already have Bennett and 'Police Casualties' - shouldn't there be an Osprey volume on the Tans?



Apols fr delay and ta for response.



ba.eight




QUOTE (Dez @ Jan 25 2010, 06:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello ba.eight,

Clarification - we don't mean the R.I.C. numbers for Auxiliary Cadets don't exist, just the fact that you won't find them in the Auxiliary Division registers after no. 237, because they are not there. The register pages are divided into vertical columns, column (1) Aux. no. - column (2) Registered no. (ie. R.I.C. no.). Around page 20 you come to Aux. no. 238 in column (1) and column (2) is blank. In fact column no. (2) is blank from here to the end of the register.

Dez



#67 RANGER8894

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:18 AM

QUOTE (stevebec @ Sep 26 2003, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My Grandmother (whose mother was Irish) use to scary us kids with stories that if we were not good the Black and Tans would come to get us in the night.

I wonder after all these years wheather such things are still used.

S.B



The Current Vice President of the USA Joe Bidon had an Irish Grandmother who told him the same stories about the Black and Tans. He has admitted he had nightmares as a child from hearing them.

#68 Simon_Fielding

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 12:53 PM

Wow! great list - thank you! I'll enjoy tracking those down.

#69 rob elliott

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 08:35 PM

Simon,

Some other books which may be of interest -

'The IRA in Kerry 1916-1921' Sinaed Joy. Has a chapter entited 'Likeable Tans and Unlikely Rebels'. Comes over as a very fair even handed read.

'Tans, Terror and Troubles' and 'The Squad' both T.Ryle Dwyer. 1st About Kerry IRA, 2nd about Collins men in Dublin.

'The Burning of Cork' Gerry White and Brendan O'Shea

'British Voices from the Irish war of independance' William Sheehan. This is military but talks about opertions with the Police.

'The Battle of Tourmakeady-fact or fiction'. Captain Donal Buckley. Irish Army Officer's study of IRA ambush of Police at Tourmakeady May 1921 [Page 228 of Police casulties] and subsaquent military follow up. IRA myth said flying column engaged hundreds of Soldiers and Police in follow up. Reality slightly different, depending on which story you believe, good book.

'The Memoirs of John. M. Regan 1909 - 1948'. Joost Augusteijn. John Regan was a catholic Policeman was inspector in the south served in troubled areas, very honest account of times. Became a senior Officer in RUC after partition.

Would recommend Peter Hart's books on the IRA too, although not all would agree.

Magazine 'History Ireland' has had some good articles about the war of Independance.

Rob

#70 Arnhem44

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 08:46 PM

I was going to buy Hart's book,probably still will.Is the book worth picking up,from some reviews the book is damned and also from others praised.Some claiming he tends to rant a little in certain parts.Maybe you guy's could point me in the right direction on this one.

#71 rob elliott

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:14 PM

Arnhem44,

If you are talking about Hart's 'The IRA and its enemies' then i thought it worth buying. Its well detailed and i think generally its fair.
Like most things where there is an historical dispute some will support him and some pan the book.

The main bone of contention is his assertion of there being no false surrender at Killimichael.

So i would recommend it and make your own mind up when you've read it.

one book i'm working through at the moment, very slowly, is 'Coolacrease'.

If you are unfamilier with it do a google.

Rob

#72 Arnhem44

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:04 PM

Thanks Rob,I will most likely buy it as I said,I believe there's info in there dealing with the shooting of ex-servicemen,this is something that interests me a great deal.Thanks again.

Brendan

#73 Peter Mc

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:14 PM

And for some contemporary fiction on the same subject read

1. "The Trail of the Black and Tans" by The Hurler on the Ditch (Emily Ussher), Talbot Press, May 1921

2. "Bloody Murder - A Story of Ireland" by S.C. Mason, Bell & Sons, 1937. The story of an Army IO working with an Auxiliary company.

#74 Stanley_C_Jenkins

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 04:24 PM

I have been working on the role of the Auxiliary Police in Ireland 1919-22 and have a question. I am not quite sure if this is the right thread, but it seems fairly appropriate, so here goes - How many clergymen were killed in the "Troubles" between 1919 and 1923. The "official" Sinn Fein version would appear to suggest a figure of four, three of whom were Catholics (Father Michael Griffin, Father O'Callaghan and Canon Magner). However, they do not count the Reverend Ralph Harbod, who was shot dead in April 1922 on the door step of his father's rectory at Murragh in County Cork. There may be one or two more although, which might point to a figure of around half-a-dozen. (?)

#75 rob elliott

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 11:04 PM

Brendan,

Another couple i forgot-

'Spies,Informers and the Anti Sinn Fein Society' Intelligence war in Cork City 1920-21. John Borgonovo

'Tales of the RIC' Blackwood and Sons 1922. A number of stories which appear to be based on actual events. Great book and quite rare now i believe.

Also one if your interested in ex-soldiers-

'Revolution? Ireland 1917-1923' Trinity History Workshop 1990. Series of separate articles on aspects of the troubles of that period.

One section entitled 'Getting Them at Last-The IRA and ex-Servicemen'. Only 12 pages of the book, gives brief details of a number of murders of ex-soldiers.

Stanley, the book 'The burning of Cork' mentions Cannon Magner a couple of times and describes his murder by Cadet Hart.

Rob