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Black and Tans


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#1 trenchwalker

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 05:17 PM

i Know this after the war but can any1 tell me where i can get information on the black and tans in ireland 1921.

#2 Hill_60

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 05:56 PM

Trenchwalker - I did a quick check on Google and came across the following, although I don't know if they go as deep as you want to go.

Try these:

Dungarvan Museum

BBC

Black & Tans

#3 trenchwalker

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 06:22 PM

yeah this is what i have come up with

you see my gtgt grandad father and his brother were in it and im just trying to find some more info on it.

#4 Deleted_stevebec_*

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 10:49 PM

My Grandmother (whose mother was Irish) use to scary us kids with stories that if we were not good the Black and Tans would come to get us in the night.

I wonder after all these years wheather such things are still used.

S.B

#5 Raster Scanning

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 01:16 AM

The biography of General A Percival "Scapegoat. General Percival of Singapore" By Clifford Kinvig, gives details of the Black & Tans in Ireland (Percival was in charge of the Brandon Battalion.
Cheers

#6 Dolphin

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 08:43 AM

It's well out of print, but there was a book published in 1959, and re-published later (my edition is a New English Library paperback dated 1970) called "The Black and Tans" by Richard Bennett.

If you can find a copy, it's probably as good a reference as you're going to get.

#7 ianw

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 12:30 PM

I think I recall that most official records relating to this episode in history were deliberately destroyed. I have reason to believe that my Grandfather may have served but cannot confirm it. I think returning B&T's may have kept silent about their involvement given some of the disdraceful things that were perpetrated in Ireland.

I understand that Lord French was Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland and had a considerable influence on the tone of the British military response in the post war years. French was a 19th Hussar as was my Grandfather which may have had some influence on his serving in Ireland. My Grandfather had also been stationed at the Curragh for a number of years before WW1 and initially came from the Cork area. God knows what he felt about the happenings there.

#8 trenchwalker

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 04:44 PM

well my dad says that he always carried a .445 revolver with him just in case they came after him.

#9 Ian Bowbrick

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 08:00 PM

There was a documentary series in the late 1970s about the Founding of the Irish Free State and one episode was dedicated to the B&Ts. The main contributor was someone called Hubbard or Huddle who was some sort of B&T Historian, perhaps you can look him up?
Ian

#10 Simon_Fielding

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 09:29 AM

The Bennett book on the Black and Tans is back in print and Postscript Books have cheapish copies for sale.

http://www.psbooks.co.uk/

I understood that all files on the Irish War of Independence at the NA were still closed given the fact that the families of informers etc. would still find such information sensitive (to say the least!) I have a friend whose great grandfather served on the Western Front and in the Tans - his time in Ireland is a research 'black hole'.

Simon

#11 Hill_60

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 09:34 AM

QUOTE (trenchwalker @ Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:22:47 +0000)
you see my gtgt grandad father and his brother were in it and im just trying to find some more info on it.

My grandfather and his mates were going to join up, but he was ill the day they went and he didn't bother following them when he was better.

#12 Neil Burns

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Posted 29 September 2003 - 12:58 PM

Hi All,
In the last few years I seem to recall a book: "Tans, Terror and Troubles" or something similar I never saw it here in the US so I can't vouch for it but it may be worth a look.
Tim Pat Coogan's Biography of Michael Collins also deals with the B&T's as does his history of the IRA but only in cursory way (only as a tangential story)
Take care,
Neil

#13 rob elliott

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Posted 30 September 2003 - 06:47 PM

When looking for information on the so called Black and Tans it should be remembered that they were actually members of the Royal Irish Constabulary.
Ordinary Policemen,not members of a British military force or para-militaries.
They were recruited to bolster the numbers of the regular force to meet the growing problem of the IRA in 1920. The nickname came about due to the shortage of police uniforms necessitating the use of ex-army uniforms,mixing jackets and trousers,hence the Black and Tan.This situation with the uniform only lasted a few months but the name stuck,generally to those recruits from England and Scotland. Contrary to myth they were not the dregs of the British army but were men of generally good military character.What is a common mistake is to believe the Auxillary Policeforce were the Black and Tans. By late 1920 the B&T's uniform was standard Police issue so it was not possible to identify them from regulars. However the 'Auxies' had their own uniform. A Tam O'Shanter hat,officers jackets and sometimes riding breeches with high boots.
These are the men the IRA were wary of. All were ex- army officers with good service records including many MC holders.They were commanded by Col F.P. Crozier of 36th Ulster Division fame.
Regarding information on the B&T's. Irish police [pre 1922] records are held at Kew.
I think there may be a list of the men but am not sure.Lots of info on actions,arrests etc.
The Bennett book is ok but a bit dated. I would recommend 'Police casulties in Ireland 1919-1922' by Richard Abbott,came out in 2000. Lists all known officers killed with personal history details of how killed,list of sources for research.
Of all the interviews i've read with B&T's I've yet to see one who regretted what they did.
Rob.

#14 Tim Bowler

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 02:07 PM

"Of all the interviews i've read with B&T's I've yet to see one who regretted what they did.
Rob. "


Rob,

Yes but with respect that's not really the point, is it? The war in Ireland was a vicious and nasty business, and atrocities were committed by both sides. The fact that those who took part may - or may not - regret their actions is neither here nor there.

Tim

#15 Deleted_stevebec_*

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 09:52 PM

I have a bloke by the name Ernest Arthur Egan from Dublin Ireland who after the war joinned the Irish Police.

He had served in the 6th Bn AIF, and at Gallipoli before joinning the Camel Corps and finished the war as SGT in the 15th ALHR.

His record shows he had two brothers killed in the British Army (I surpose an Irish Regt) during the war but I don't know their names.

He toke his discharge in Ireland post war from the AIF to gain a postion in the Irish Constablary.

His record showns him to be a good soldier with few crimes during the war.

S.B

#16 Matt

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 11:01 PM

Were the Black & Tans placed under the control of the Lloyd-George government or the RUC?

Regards,
Matt

#17 trooper

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 01:31 PM

I cann't be sure if the Black and Tans came under any particular government department but I am preety sure they never came under the RUC which did not come into existence until after the establishment of Northern Ireland when they replaced the RIC in the Province.

Trooper

#18 Matt

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 12:16 PM

Hmm...my mistake, guess I mixed the RUC up with the RIC.

Regards,
Matt

#19 Conor Dodd

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 08:09 PM

QUOTE (trenchwalker @ Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:17:42 +0000)
i Know this after the war but can any1 tell me where i can get information on the black and tans in ireland 1921.

Going back to the first post it is possible to get information (mainly modern books) on the Black and Tans but if you are after information on an individual, there isn't much hope you have to remember that the Black and Tans aren't the favorite people that ever fought here in Ireland so 1) you aren't going to get their names in newspapers etc. 2) any records of them where either destroyed in 1922 or taken to England.

Cheers

Conor

#20 Ian Bowbrick

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 10:35 PM

Just to follow up on Connor's post, the Black & Tans were one of the most hated groups who were ever sent to Ireland by the British. The B&Ts did not discriminate against who they brutalised. A distateful subject to a lot of Irish people.
Ian

#21 Greg

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Posted 22 January 2004 - 09:45 PM

Trench,
Black and Tans were regular police.Their records are available at Kew as are the enlistment rolls of the Auxiliary Division. Jim Herlihy who is in the Garda has recently published a book with lists of police casualties. There has been a recent article on the moves of Irish policeman in general, post Irish Free State. Quite a number (about 2000), particularly from the Auxiliary Division went to Palestine to form the Palestine Gendarmerie. Some Black and Tans and Ulster Special Constabulary were recruited through regimental associations post first world war. This is an area of research which still raises hackles. If you are interested in a booklist contact me off forum
Greg

#22 Stanley_C_Jenkins

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 01:23 PM

I know that this thread has seen little traffic lately but, in view of the success of the actor Daniel Craig as the new "James Bond", I wondered if anyone can remember the television film "Troubles", made circa 1988, in which I think Daniel Craig played a member of the RIC Auxiliary Division who ends up getting murdered by the IRA. Or am I getting him confused with another actor? Other actors involved included Sean Bean and Pauline MacLynn (ie "Mrs Doyle").



#23 Brian_Curragh

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 01:44 PM

Stanley

Doesn't look like it was Daniel Craig - this is the IMDB listing for "Troubles"

Brian

#24 museumtom

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 02:12 PM

PM Bannerman from here
http://new.livinghis...bannerman#p8419

He wrote a book on them, even named all the ones who joined them in his area, County Clare.
Regards.
Tom.

#25 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:30 PM

This thread hasn't received much attention but there have been other threads on the subject since 2004.

Mick