332 replies to this topic

[bob lembke]

Bill;

I agree. And, I might add, based on being moderately knowledgable about Turkish politics and recent history, I see no serious bar to either the Turkish state or the Turkish Army honoring women if they had fought and died at Gallipoli. However, the Ottoman state might not have done so, but they are out of the picture. From the position of a Yank; while the US has never had a female Head of State or a Head of Government (of course in the US the positions are combined), Turkey has had a female Head of Government. (Not too strong an arguement, but it does give one of many examples of Turkish acceptance of women in various important roles.)

In early 1915 about the only thing that the Turks were not short of were brave and well-motivated men to fight in the army, especially when they were defending Turkey proper against invading foreigners. Having women at the front and in the army would likely cause a variety of problems. They just were not needed. And as I said before, the influential army imams would not stand for it, I am sure.

I have seen rubbish that women have some sort of superior merit as snipers. There is no reason why some women, as well as some men, can become excellent shots, and there have been outstanding women snipers in other armies and places. But they have no innate superiority lurking in their genes. It might be useful for a sniper to be small and lithe, but a young man would be stronger than a woman the same size, generally. (I could mention that my wife's mother, when she was 16 years old at about 1950, lost her hunting license because she killed two deer with one shot, both kills being head shots. There was a one deer bag limit. She also, at that time, was a successful pitcher in men's semi-professional baseball. She would have been a good sniper if she had the motivation, I suspect.)

And it must be mentioned that the stories of the supposed "women snipers at Gallipoli" are generally so fantastic or weird that they do not encourage belief.

Bob Lembke

[Bill Woerlee]

Bob

G'day mate

Good additional information mate - all good sauce.

Cheers

Bill

[infantry]

Dear All,
As an Ottoman military enthusiast I fully agree on the final outcome of this debate, namely no female snipers during Gallipoli campaign. I'd like to point out the importance of counterinsurgency experiences of the Turkish officers related with sniper issue. Here is an excerpt from one of my article.
Regards

One of the least known parts of Turkish officers is doubtlessly their counterinsurgency experiences. Many books were written about the colonial experiences of British and French officers and their effect on their performance during the World War I.  But unfortunately nothing was written about the Turkish officers with similar experiences. As I already pointed out Turkish officers participated many counterinsurgency operations in different corners of the empire. Especially their participation to suppress Balkan guerrillas (komitacı) had far reading results on their mentality.

Most of the Turkish officers preferred small unit tactics and techniques to the large scale operations. We can easily identify this tendency. The performances of small Turkish outposts against the Allied landings in 25 April and 6 August were very good examples of unconventional infantry tactics. The performance 1st Platoon (8 Coy 3 / 27 lnfantry) under the command of brevet Lieutenant İbrahim  in Arıburnu on 6 August was clearly one of the best. Platoon was given the duty to observe enemy activity in Balıkçı Barınakları (Fishermen’s Huts). Platoon defended their post successfully against an attacking battalion. They managed to perform fighting withdrawal under heavy fire after delaying the enemy advance several hours. And they were the ones who met Mustafa Kemal Bey near Conkbayırı. Mustafa Kemal Bey ordered them to take position against advancing Anzac troops even after learning that they had no ammunition left. This small incident saved the day.  

Another outcome of counterinsurgency experiences was sniper tactics and techniques. Turkish snipers were the common subject in official histories and memoirs. They really created havoc in the Allied ranks. Snipers managed to kill many officers during the amphibious landing operations. Allied units did not able to perform their tasks because of lack of officers. Many opportunities were lost and leaderless units affected adversely the operations of other units also. And in the end Allied units spared many soldiers to combat with Turkish snipers. Neither Liman Paşa nor any commander higher than him gave any order to perform sniper tactics. Turkish officers independently trained and used snipers. [/i] [i]

[Bill Woerlee]

Infantry

G'day mate

Great post and a very refreshing examination of the defensive work of the Turks, especially in counter insurgency. It was something that I have seen but never actually used that label but doing so opens up a whole new vista of attitude study regarding the Turkish campaign. Thanks for pushing the intellectual envelope.

Cheers

Bill

[Bryn]

Someone wrote:

"Is it possible the woman et famille hid and evaded removal? Is it possible they snuck back later? Is it possible to fire a rifle in a battle zone and not be heard? Is it possible to shoot a straggler dead on an isolated spot and then go out after dark to rifle his body if he has fallen otherwise unobserved? Is it possible to kill for both love of country and lucre at the same time?"

Something being 'possible' doesn't overcome commonsense, lack of evidence and a bit of logic. Anything's possible as an explanation to those who desperately want to believe.


Infantry,

Interesting observations, and there certainly is a lot written regarding Turkish snipers. Some of it's ridiculous (but believed by some - see above), but most of it a lot more reliable.

Except for the part about the defence being successful, I'd disagree with the statement about the landing at Fisherman's Hut. 'Platoon defended their post successfully against an attacking battalion'. The 'battalion' in question were 140 men (about half a company), of the 7th Battalion AIF, and as for attacking, I suppose that's technically correct, but they were still in their boats heading for shore. Only 38 reached the shore, and they were mostly pinned down behind the low embankment in front of Fisherman's Hut knoll.

[Eceabat]

Pals,

If our woman sniper was as persistent and as long lived during the campaign as she is on this site she would have been able to take out the entire Allied army.

A couple of points, there have been repeated references to a white house in this thread and others, from which our fem fatale did her deadly work. At the time of the Helles Landings, apart from the village of Seddulbahir, the coast was pretty much empty of civilian buildings. There was however, a light house and a small cottage attached in between V and W beaches, at the same point where the present light house and cottage is, below the site of the Helles Memorial to the missing.

However, all personnel from the light house, and all civilians from the village had been evacuated long before the British Marines staged their early landings, let alone April 25. This was confirmed by an old lady of the village, who has since passed away, and who remembered being evacuated along with her family when she was five years old in late 1914.

The family that occupied the Fisherman’s hut at North Beach had also been long since removed ahead of the landings at Ariburnu, a fact confirmed by the present inhabitant of the cottage, the grandson of the fisherman. His grandmother did make a name for herself during the campaign, serving soup to Turkish soldiers in one of the villages in the rear of the battle zone and mending clothes. She was apparently famed for the quality of her knitted socks.

The villages of Buyuk and Kucuk Anafartalar were also evacuated well before the landings, most of the villagers going to stay with friends or family in hamlets further inland. There is a delightful old dear in Buyuk Anafartalar, a 100 hundred summers or so old, who can remember her father going off to join his regiment (the 27th) in late 1914, which was the last time she ever saw him. She and the rest of the family were evacuated to the village of Camlica, further inland across the peninsula. She can remember the bombardments, the troops resting in the village and even saw Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who often stayed in the village (note, the house in the village of Bigali that is claimed to have been Mustafa Kemal’s home during the campaign was only used by him for a couple of nights, the house he stayed in more often in Bigali was demolished years ago).

Like Bryn and others, I have never subscribed to the idea of female Turkish snipers. All the civilians were removed from potential battle zones months before the landings, mainly in December 1914. While someone might be able to slip back to their village briefly, a civilian would be noticed quickly and removed.

I know that whatever I say isn’t going to kill this debate off, but having discussed this with some of Turkey’s best experts on the campaign, such as Sahin Aldogan, Kenan Celik and Gursel Goncu, all of whom dismiss the tales, I can say there is nothing in the Turkish accounts that support this.

Cheers
Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Yeah Bill ... but like Bryn says - it is possible ...

Cheers

Bill

[Bryn]

Bill and Bill,

Bill's right. So is Bill. Lack of any evidence whatsoever will not kill this particular fantasy. 'She' will be back.

There are too many people out there who believe that, as long as something's even remotely possible, it MUST have happened.  Good thing they're not judges.

[Eceabat]

There is also a tale told by some of the more religiously minded Turkish guides that the Sandringham company of the Norfolks were slaughtered by the spirits of long dead Ottoman warriors who, seeing that their fatherland was in peril, rose from their graves to fight once again for the Empire, Sultan and Caliph. No one has proved that one didn't happen either and there are people who believe it.

Bill

[bob lembke]

My father, who fought at Gallipoli at the ANZAC bridgehead, told me when I was a kid that Charlemagne actually served in the volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie that my father served in. But he was publicity-shy and shed his chain mail for an ordinary uniform. The bright sun really bothered him after all those years in the cave. Pop said that he had a good sense of humor, but was sensitive about his strong French accent.

Bob Lembke

[Eceabat]

Bob,

and try and prove Charlemagne didn't serve with your father.

By the way, did your father ever mention sampling Turkish Raki when he was serving on the Peninsula?

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Bill and Bob

Sheesh, now you guys are just taking the p$$s out of the conspiracy theories. For shame. The truth is out there. Just ask Fox. He'll track it down.

[Fade to X Files theme music]

Cheers

Bill

[bob lembke]

Bob,

and try and prove Charlemagne didn't serve with your father.

By the way, did your father ever mention sampling Turkish Raki when he was serving on the Peninsula?

Bill

The only thing that he mentioned drinking was the water. He said that it had been carried in goat-skins on camel-back for days and was black, and the only way the Germans could drink it was when it was laced with oil of peppermint. Kannengeiser wrote that the two advantages that the Turks had were lots of good small arms ammunition, and lots of good water. But I have to wonder about the latter.

Regrettably, he did not tell me enough about his service there. I have no documentary evidence that he was there (his unit got there illegally), but I am sure that he was there as he told me something that was wrong, but was a mistake that someone actually there was likely to make, while someone who had read about Gallipoli but was not there would have gotten right. (It was about seeing the heavy Austrian mortar battery that arrived at ANZAC, that Pop saw and reported to me.) Secondly, while I don't have a letter from my father from Turkey, I have a letter from my grand-father in Russia who wrote something obviously responding to something out of a letter sent from Turkey. I have a third strong piece of evidence that he was there.

On its face, I trust no source, not even my father. But over years of study his oral history has proved remarkably accurate.

Bob Lembke

[harribobs]

I thought this may be of interest, a militia type unit I understand

[michaeldr]

A fascinating picture
Is it possible to date it?

[harribobs]

i do not have enough knowledge of weapons/uniforms to date it

[michaeldr]

Thanks again for the picture
I hope that someone else can help with the date

regards
Michael

[bob lembke]

It is not at all apparent what ethnic group (or groups) are represented. We cannot assume that they are Turks. Even a western officer who was there and snapped a picture and wrote "angry Turks" on the back could be dead wrong. Some of the headgear might suggest a Caucasian people. In this vein, a big problem in the current Georgian mess is bands of other ethnic groups that have traveled to South Ossetia, including maurading bands of Cossacks. Cossacks, good grief!

Any clues as to the origins of the photo, or was it found on a doorstep, wrapped in a blanket?

Note the German-style "potato-masher" or Steilgranade. Don't know of anyone but the Germans who made them in the era. The "automatic" handgun is distinctive and does not ring a bell, except hinting post-WW I to me; does not say Central Powers to me, perhaps a Browning. The women, one seemingly not that young, not only being armed, but more heavily armed than the men, suggests a propaganda measure or even a humorous statement, not a historic reality.  

Bob Lembke

[harribobs]

Any clues as to the origins of the photo, or was it found on a doorstep, wrapped in a blanket?

Bob Lembke

that's a particularity strange comment, was there any need for it?

the photo has been sent to me from Turkey

[centurion]

There is also a tale told by some of the more religiously minded Turkish guides that the Sandringham company of the Norfolks were slaughtered by the spirits of long dead Ottoman warriors who, seeing that their fatherland was in peril, rose from their graves to fight once again for the Empire, Sultan and Caliph. No one has proved that one didn't happen either and there are people who believe it.

Bill

Effectively a Turkish equivalent of the St George and the archers of Agincourt at Mons fable. Myths of ancient heros returning to defend their country have existed down the ages I think even the Romans had one of these. Arthur, Roland (no not that one) St Joan and Drake are all supposed to be on call if needed (but so far have not put in an appearance).

[bob lembke]

that's a particularity strange comment, was there any need for it?

the photo has been sent to me from Turkey

Sorry, Harribobs, I fancy myself a great wit (probably misplaced) or perhaps even a latter-day Oscar Wilde, and tend to toss off the odd (interpret as you will) remark. I am trying to be helpful, lately I have been reading several hours a day on Gallipoli and other Turkish matters, including the ethnic stew-pot at and near the eastern end of Anatolia, mostly in languages other than English, and therefore not accessable to many Pals,  and only two weeks ago in Vienna I bought a source on Gallipoli that I had never seen before and that I am more than halfway thru. So I sometimes will have an angle on such questions a bit different than others, and hopefully useful.

As I was assuming that the photo was posted to try to get to the bottom of it I was asking the source of the photo, as at first blush the photo and people, clothes, etc. do not scream "Anatolian Turk" to me, but rather hints at Cisserian (sp?), Caucasians, possibly even Tatar or Armenian. I am not an expert in the dress of these groups, but there may be a clue in the dress and headdress of the younger woman. The older woman does not even have to be a Muslim, but even a Christian or Kurdish widow.

Anything at all on the rear? I know several other handwriting systems from the period other than "English" script that were used by a number of languages. If there is Turkish I have very little ability to translate it, but the alphabet that it was written in would help date the photo. However, I could almost certainly identify Turkish, as opposed to other languages.

Incidentally, over the last few hundred years Turkish has been written in about ten alphabets, not just the modern "Latin" alphabet and the previous Ottoman use of the Arabic alphabet, which incidentally was quite unsuitable for use by the considerably more complex Turkic languages. Atatuerk's reforms made a lot of sense, IMHO.  

Bob

[pipvh]

This photo rang a dim and distant bell - at first I thought they were Turkish irregulars from the time of the burning of Smyrna, as those fur hats look a lot like Attaturk's favourite headgear, but I think that in fact they might be Armenian resistance fighters.  See this page for similar pictures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_militia

and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Armenian...-_July_1915.png

the 'defenders of Urfa' are wearing keffiyeh, as is the boy in the center of haribob's photo - he's also holding an SMLE, isn't he?  Women did fight in these groups, apparently - could the one in the photo be a nun (from her head-covering)?

[centurion]

No she's just wearing the bog standard Islamic woman's clothes for the region minus a veil. Greek widows used to wear much the same.

[pipvh]

No she's just wearing the bog standard Islamic woman's clothes for the region minus a veil. Greek widows used to wear much the same.

That head-covering with its cape and tightly-fitted neck-piece looks exactly like that worn by Orthodox nuns - and not like the Anatolian hijab of the period (only judging by old photos/paintings, mind you). I don't know what Armenian nuns wear but as Armenian monks look basically the same as their Orthodox brethren I assume it's largely similar.

And of course there was a tradition of warrior monastics - women as well as men - in Eastern Christianity right up to WWII.

Doesn't have anything to do with snipers at Gallipoli, of course...

[centurion]

That head-covering with its cape and tightly-fitted neck-piece looks exactly like that worn by Orthodox nuns - and not like the Anatolian hijab of the period (only judging by old photos/paintings, mind you). I don't know what Armenian nuns wear but as Armenian monks look basically the same as their Orthodox brethren I assume it's largely similar.

And of course there was a tradition of warrior monastics - women as well as men - in Eastern Christianity right up to WWII.

Doesn't have anything to do with snipers at Gallipoli, of course...

Having lived and worked in the Middle East for more than 20 years I've seen thousands of costumes like that - nothing to do with nuns