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The Dardanelles Forts


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#1 oak

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 10:01 AM

Pals,

I would be very grateful if anyone could tell me how the numbering system for the Dardanelles Forts operated (and, incidently who numbered them?) I know that Fort No. 1 and Fort No. 3 were at Helles/Sedh-el-Bahr. Where was Fort No. 2?

Am I correct in thinking that the uneven numbered forts were on the northern side of the Dardanelles and the even numbered forts on the southern side? (and that the lower numbered forts were at the entrance and the numbers climbed the farther in the forts were located?)

Kind regards,
Philip

#2 gumbirsingpun

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 01:46 PM

hi

in answer to your question as to how they were numbered. the uneven numbered forts (1-3) were on the northern side of the entrance of the dardanelles,the even numbered forts (4-6) on the southern side of the entrance of the dardanelles,

as for the rest of those forts, fort no 16(hamidiye), fort no 8(dardanos, but i have the faintest idea about where fort no 2 was,

could fort no 2 be kilitbahir caste named the lock of the sea?

regards

tuna

#3 curranl

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 02:24 PM

Hi Phillip,
Does this mean you are going to write something on the Irish involvement in Gallipoli or am I putting two and two toghether and coming up with 4 million blink.gif ?

Regards,

Liam.

#4 oak

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 03:25 PM

To Tuna: Many thanks.

To Liam: There's nothing wrong with your maths, Liam. I am writing a book on the landing at Sedh-el-Bahr/V Beach on 25 April 1915.

Regards,
Philip

#5 curranl

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 03:30 PM

Hi Philip,

Fair dues! Put me down for a copy! Do you have a likely publishing date?

Regards,

Liam.

#6 oak

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 03:40 PM

Steady Liam!

It's still in the early stages. But many thanks for the vote of confidence.

Regards,
Philip

#7 horatio2

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 04:20 PM

Philip, The Official History has a map (Map.2 Dardanelles & The Narrows) which is marked with "Forts and Batteries - lettered and numbered". My copy is a bit hard to read but I cannot see a Fort 2 anywhere. With that number it should be part of the Outer Defences on the Asian side somewhere near Kum Kale but I cannot see it. It is not the only number missing, in fact the numbering system was somewhat haphazard if the map is to be believed.
H2

#8 michaeldr

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 04:50 PM

I wonder if this is covered by Naval Operations (Official History of the Great War) by J. Corbett?
Does anyone have a copy of Vol.II?

#9 oak

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 02:53 PM

Many thanks Horatio.

Michael I have a copy of Naval Operations (Volume 11) on order. Hopefully it might answer the question.

Regards,
Philip

#10 The Plummed Goose

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 05:24 PM

Hello Philip,

Just checked a map in Keyes Memoirs and indeed a (large) number of numbers are missing. The ones indicated on Keyes map are :

01 : Ertuğrul (Helles)
03 : SB
04 : Orhaniye (Orkanie)
06 : Kumkale
07 : Mesudiye (Messudieh)
08 : Dardanos
09 : Yıldız
13 : Rumeli Mecidiye (Rumili Medjidieh)
16 : Rumeli Hamidiye (Hamidieh II)
17 : Namazgah (Namazieh)
19 : Anadolu Hamidiye (Hamidieh I)
20 : Çimenlik (Chemenlik)
22 : Değermen Burnu (Derma Burnu)
24 : Anadolu Mecidiye (Anadolu Medjidieh)
30 : Nagara

Which ever way you (I mean I) try to find a logical explanation for the numbering there does not seem to be any. For example during the campaign there was the famous "Asiatic Annie" who used to bomb the Helles front and which was part of the Intepe Battery. This battery was given the number 53B !!!

Would love to hear the explanation ...

eric

#11 oak

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 08:13 AM

Eric, my friend, I hope that this finds you well.

Many thanks for that very detailed information. The numbering system really is a mystery.

Regards,
Philip

#12 El Shahin

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 06:47 PM

Not to bring really more light into the darkness of the numbering system but to share this map with you. The abbreviation B.H.B. stands for mobile artillerie, Sch for searchlight and M.B. mine obstacle batteries (whatever that meant).
The mobile artillery at least on the European side of the Dardanelles was under command of Colonel Wehrle, while the whole coast defense was in the responsibility of Admiral von Usedom.

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#13 oak

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Posted 13 June 2007 - 03:15 PM

Thank you El Shahin (the Falcon).

Please excuse the slight delay in replying. I was away for a few days.

It's a very interesting map. Might I ask the source, please?

Regards,
Philip

#14 El Shahin

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Posted 13 June 2007 - 11:38 PM

No sweat - the map comes from the book "Der Kampf um die Dardanellen 1915" (The battle of the Dardanelles) from the series Battles of the World War, Band 16, from the Reichsarchiv, wrítten by Dr. Carl Mühlmann, Berlin 1927. In the attachments were four maps.

Rittmeister (Captain) Mühlmann was the MA of Marshall Liman von Sanders at the beginning of the Gallipoli campaign. Later he successfully tried to get rid of this difficult task...(he wrote to his parents:"Dear father and mother. You cannot imagine how difficult those 1 1/2 years with L. (Liman) were. If I would had such a calm tempered character, I couldn't stand it..."). He changed to the Südgruppe (Krithia-Front) in the HQ of Col Sodenstern and later General Weber, who both commandet the Turkish troops during the three battles of Krithia in the south. His letters to his parents are unique testemonies of the battles, in which he sometimes personally were engaged. After the war he wrote several books about the campaign and the Turkish-German realtionship.
Attached a picture of him...

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#15 bob lembke

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 01:17 PM

El Shahin;

I have the book "Der Kampf um die Dardanellen 1915" (The battle of the Dardanelles) from the series Schlachten des Weltkrieges, and in fact have the full set. (Pals, these books are very plentiful and very inexpensive, and most of them are very good, and give a very detailed picture of specific battles, but do not cover the whole war, only about 25-30 important battles and campaigns in 38 volumes. I bought most of mine a few years ago for about 7 DM a copy, plus postage. The authors are sometimes General Staff officers who directed the battle in question. The Reichsarchiv was used after the war to shelter and retain some of the very best general staff officers after the Allies forbad Germany from having a general staff.)

El Shahin, I will have to look up Rittmeiser Mühlmann's other books. I think you know my research interests at Gallipoli, especially the Freiwilliger=Pionier=Kompagnie, in which my father served in 1915. Do you think his other books might be useful to me?

Bob Lembke

#16 oak

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 02:36 PM

El Shahin,

Thanks for the information.

Regards,
Philip

#17 El Shahin

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 10:57 PM

Bob,

I have all books from Mühlmann but nothing about the Pionierkompagnie. I will have a look next week in the German Military Archiv in Freiburg and hope to find something for you there.
However - the Pionierkompagnie, even with high losses, did a lot of fortifications, trenches and mining in the ANZAC sector as far as I know.

Stay in touch
Klaus

#18 tonyblackpool

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 05:44 PM

QUOTE (El Shahin @ Jun 15 2007, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bob,

I have all books from Mühlmann but nothing about the Pionierkompagnie. I will have a look next week in the German Military Archiv in Freiburg and hope to find something for you there.
However - the Pionierkompagnie, even with high losses, did a lot of fortifications, trenches and mining in the ANZAC sector as far as I know.

Stay in touch
Klaus

hi all, check out websites thread new site gallipoli should answer a good few questions. regards tony

#19 tonyblackpool

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE (El Shahin @ Jun 15 2007, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bob,

I have all books from Mühlmann but nothing about the Pionierkompagnie. I will have a look next week in the German Military Archiv in Freiburg and hope to find something for you there.
However - the Pionierkompagnie, even with high losses, did a lot of fortifications, trenches and mining in the ANZAC sector as far as I know.

Stay in touch
Klaus

hi all, check out websites thread new site gallipoli should answer a good few questions. regards tony



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