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Spoof Iron Cross


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#1 Mads

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 11:26 AM

Hi

My name is Mads, and i am a military collector from Denmark.

I am searching for information on the socalled "Spoof Iron Crosses", if anybody know anything.

I would like to know the history about the cross, and if possible, see some pictures of the different types of crosses.

My theory is that the crosses, was some kind of propaganda, made in the UK, and probaly in the areas where the belgian refugees were placed. I think that the crosses maybe was produced in the Durham County area, because of the concentration of belgian refugees, iron works, and the shelling of the three cities mentioned on the back of the cross.

Hope that somebody can help me!

I am working on an article to the Danish Arms Society's magazine.


Mads unsure.gif

#2 chaz

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 11:38 AM

Mads, welcome.
dont get side tracked with Durham . I picked up a WW2 screwback IC 1st class from a dealer. looked authentic including the box. Aged and worn looked good. Since then I have gained a fair bit of knowledge but by no means am I an expert.
I sold the IC on but had it returned as being a fake. Aparently it was a good one but still a fake.

result I am 100 down. thanks to the dealer.
I learned after that dealers will sell you a fake but wont buy them.

basically there is a good business in Poland and Czecoslovakia (the former), where people have found it worth while to produce the German medals cheap but looking authentic. Hence the ammount that appear on Ebay. Easy to sell on and no need to add authenticity.
A recent militaria fairs I have been told the value of German medals is in the paper work that comes with them which acts as some sort of provenance, but even today this can also be faked.

sorry to say, you pays your money you take your pick of whats out there.
Even the British 1st war medals are being copied today and the stamping of details around the rims are being done to demand, in otherwords, someone researches a soldier then makes the medal to suit. Some times people actually recognise a repro as being in their collection.

#3 chaz

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 11:42 AM

http://gmic.co.uk/in...hp?showforum=86

#4 MelPack

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 11:55 AM

Hello Mads

There is a very peculiar outfit called the Gentleman's Military Interest Club ohmy.gif

There is a specific forum on their website dedicated to all things related to the Imperial Iron Cross 1813-1918.

I am sure that you will be able to garner an enormous amount of information from the postings let alone drawing on the reservoir of knowledge from the fetishists laugh.gif

The link is:

http://gmic.co.uk/

Good luck and greetings to Denmark

Mel

Please sen payment for the above in Gammel Dansk tongue.gif

#5 Neil Burns

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 11:58 AM

I think what Mads is referring to are the large cast-iron maltese crosses which normally read 'iron cross' on the front and usually have a disparaging remark regarding 'kulture' on the reverse. Not currently produced iron crossed made to deceive the unwary.
I don't have one in my collection, Mads but will keep an eye out for any that I happen to see.
Neil

Whoops! edited to correct Pal's name!

#6 6th Hauraki KIA KAHA

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 12:44 PM

Hi

This maybe something like you are talking about.
These two are the only ones I have in my collection. I have seen a few different types made of steel brass and other mixed metals, With For Kultur , some with words on the other side and some like these with nothing on the other side.


The one with the boot lace was brought back by a Maori in the Pioneer Battalion.
I was told the were worn as lucky charms and kept as souvenirs
They were meant to be thrown into the German trenches as an insult for there destruction of culture and countries they had invaded.
I have also been told they were manufactured in France.

I hope this is of some help

Jonathan


Attached File  kultur.jpg   100.72KB   31 downloads

#7 Neil Burns

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 01:01 PM

Hi Jonathan,
That's pretty much it. The ones I've seen in the US are normally about twice the size of an actual Iron Cross and read (in English) Iron Cross on one side.
I've mostly seen these in US antique stores for absurd prices, there doesn't seem to be a big market for them amongst collectors.
Neil

#8 Mads

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 01:32 PM

QUOTE (Neil Burns @ Aug 17 2006, 01:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think what Mads is referring to are the large cast-iron maltese crosses which normally read 'iron cross' on the front and usually have a disparaging remark regarding 'kulture' on the reverse. Not currently produced iron crossed made to deceive the unwary.
I don't have one in my collection, Mads but will keep an eye out for any that I happen to see.
Neil

Whoops! edited to correct Pal's name!



Hi Neil

You hit the spot. When i made my application i tryed to put some pictures on, but the were too big, so i will put them on a little later on today.

Mads

#9 Mads

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 01:36 PM

QUOTE (6th Hauraki KIA KAHA @ Aug 17 2006, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi

This maybe something like you are talking about.
These two are the only ones I have in my collection. I have seen a few different types made of steel brass and other mixed metals, With For Kultur , some with words on the other side and some like these with nothing on the other side.
The one with the boot lace was brought back by a Maori in the Pioneer Battalion.
I was told the were worn as lucky charms and kept as souvenirs
They were meant to be thrown into the German trenches as an insult for there destruction of culture and countries they had invaded.
I have also been told they were manufactured in France.

I hope this is of some help

Jonathan
Attached File  kultur.jpg   100.72KB   31 downloads



Hi Jonathan

It is a good picture you have put on. It is exactly what i am looking for, but i have some different types in my collection. I will add some pictures later on today.

About the history - im not sure its what you have been told - but im not sure about my version either. I will post it here on a later occasion.

Thanks for helping.

Mads

#10 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 01:59 PM

I would appreciate seeing the history of the items.
I have never seen one of these before.

Mick

#11 Mads

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 03:43 PM

QUOTE (auchonvillerssomme @ Aug 17 2006, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would appreciate seeing the history of the items.
I have never seen one of these before.

Mick



About the history - i am searching for that.

My theory: coming later, have to put it together in the right way first.


Mads

Sorry for the spelling, english is not my native tongue.

#12 MelPack

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 03:47 PM

I am intrigued because I have never seen one before.

By pure coincidence there is one for sale on eBay at the moment marking the bombing of Whitby, Scarborough and Hartlepool in 1914.

regards

Mel

Attached File  Prop.jpg   32.55KB   16 downloads

#13 Mads

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 03:58 PM

Just found some different types of the spoof iron crosses, in my collection!

First picture: front side

Top left: Rheims, louvain, amiens Cross + WW + 1914
Top right: for kultur
Bottom left: for brave deeds
Bottom right: iron kaisers cross

Second picture: back side

Top left: 1914 W Hartlepools, scarboro, whitby
Top right: blank
Bottom left: liar
Bottom right: blank

I have a few more different types in my collection, and a few of variants of the above mentioned.

The first one: Rheims, louvain and amiens : cities where the germans was very cruel against people and city.
Hartlepools, scarboro and whitby : cities witch the germans shelled in a attack on the 16 december 1914, from the sea.

Hope this will help some one to find some more informations for me!

Mads

PS: picture 2 will follow in a new mail.

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#14 HarryBettsMCDCM

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 03:58 PM

They were sold I believe to raise funds for various War charities & were for propaganda,as well as the Scarboro' one & the various "For Kultur" Crosses,there were those with "Amiens" & "Remember Louvain~1914";
In line with the British made & sold replica of the Lusitania Medal,which was an almost identical copy of the actual German Commemorative medallion struck to signal the sinking of her,but with "May" instead of "Mai" where the date is.

#15 Mads

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 03:59 PM

Picture 2

Mads

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#16 Tom Morgan

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 04:08 PM

For those who own them - are they made of iron? (They look as if they are).

Tom

#17 HarryBettsMCDCM

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 04:18 PM

Yes Tom Cast Iron~ Painted Black {usually}

#18 Mads

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 04:31 PM

Hi Tom

All my pieces are in cast iron.

Most of them are painted black, or they were painted black.

Mads

#19 Mads

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 04:33 PM

QUOTE (HarryBettsMCDCM @ Aug 17 2006, 05:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They were sold I believe to raise funds for various War charities & were for propaganda,as well as the Scarboro' one & the various "For Kultur" Crosses,there were those with "Amiens" & "Remember Louvain~1914";
In line with the British made & sold replica of the Lusitania Medal,which was an almost identical copy of the actual German Commemorative medallion struck to signal the sinking of her,but with "May" instead of "Mai" where the date is.



Hi Harry

Is it possible for you to show a Lusitania medal of the british type?

Mads

#20 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 06:22 PM

This is the Britsh version of the Lusitania medal. People get slightly obsessed with the lettering especially the date. thinking they have an original. i will post a picture of the real one, so its not hard to tell them apart.

Mick

#21 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 06:25 PM

Original....Quite a difference.

Mick

#22 Mads

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 07:02 PM

QUOTE (auchonvillerssomme @ Aug 17 2006, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is the Britsh version of the Lusitania medal. People get slightly obsessed with the lettering especially the date. thinking they have an original. i will post a picture of the real one, so its not hard to tell them apart.

Mick



Hi Mick

Thank you very much,looking forward to see the real one.

Mads

#23 roy litchfield

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 08:04 PM

Hello all,

A couple more, the "Louvain" is the usual lump of black painted iron with a plain back.

The other is in tin plate with a pin fixing on the back. It reads -

Top of cross Louvain, Malines
Bottom arm Rheims, Termonde, 1914
Left/right For Brutal Conduct

Best wishes Roy

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#24 chaz

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 10:46 AM

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...1QQcmdZViewItem