37 replies to this topic

[mruk]

According to the info I hold on my Grandfather, he enlisted in York [Dec. 1915], was enlisted in April 1916, and drafted to the front in July 1916, where he saw action in various sectors before being discharged in September 1918 suffering from shellshock and deafness as a result of an explosion. It seems to me that the period between enlisting in April and being drafted to the front in July is a very short period compared to a number of random men who I have also checked--some of whom enlisted near to the same time [December 1915], yet were not drafted until maybe fifteen months afterwards. Can anyone help me on this one please, and perhaps offer a theory on why he would have been drafted after what seems a relatively short time?

Many Thanks,
Dave

[Kath]

Not answering your post, Dave, but possibly of interest:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...amp;#entry36193

Kath.

[mruk]

Thanks for the link Kath,
                                  It's been most useful in a number of ways--training, depots, camps and mobilisation etc;, though there doesn't seem to be any consensus of opinion, with the length of training varying from three to eight months 'from flash to bang' [courtesy of Grumpy]. Glenn's list was interesting, as my Grandfather served with the Leeds Rifles, though the only decent picture we have of Pte. Chris Stowe shows him wearing the capbadge of the DLI. No mention on his MIC, apart from the 8th West Yorks and 18th Glosters. He was also a married man at the time [1913], and if the dates are to be believed, it seems that he was at the tail-end of voluntary enlistment, and preferred this to conscription. I've yet to visit Kew, and maybe this will yield more info, especially the mystery surrounding the DLI. It may have been that he trained with the DLI before joining the Leeds Rifles in mid-July 1916.

Kind Regards,
Dave

[Kevin Keeley]

According to the limited info I have on my father, he "joined up" 5 August 1914 but was not attested until 23 August 1914 possibly he was only 16. He told me that they (recruiting pffice?) kept sending him away to check his age and "come back tomorrow."
Kevin Keeley

[mruk]

Thanks Kevin,
                    the point about enlisting and attesting is an interesting one, and I wonder if that was the case with my Grandfather, and whether he enlisted in December 1915, but wasn't called to attest until April 1916.  I know some men were sent home until called up, but that's about it. Does anyone know what the procedure was please?

Kind Regards,
Dave

[gporta]

Dave,

Sounds like he was among those last enlisting under the Derby Scheme. Once a man had attested his availability, he usually had to wait  until called up and remain in his civilian occupations in the meantime.

Gloria

[mruk]

Thanks Gloria,
I wasn't sure if that was the case or not. I suppose it was a bit like me joining the Navy. I had a medical, was passed fit, and then called up later. 1979, I hasten to add.

Cheers,
Dave

[andyspiller]

Dave

My grandfather attested Aug 1916 but was not called up until December of that year. Additionally, these men were issued with a numbered armband to show, whilst in Civies, that they had attested and thereby avoided the white feather thing.

Rgds

Andy

[Max (UK)]

From the Service Records have had been able to find about my family, it seems that most of them were called up fairly soon after enlisting providing they were single and without kids. Whereas my Great Grandad was mid-30s with 4 kids and it took well over a year before he was called up....so I assume they held off calling him up as long as possible.

So I would say it is based on age, marital status, kids and probably also demand for new men.

They then tended to have had about 9 or 10 months of training before being sent overseas. Except for those that were already in the Territorials, who must have already had training and were pretty much sent straight overseas.

Additionally, these men were issued with a numbered armband to show, whilst in Civies, that they had attested and thereby avoided the white feather thing.

I did not know that - makes a lot of sense. Cheers.

[gporta]

My grandfather attested Aug 1916 but was not called up until December of that year. Additionally, these men were issued with a numbered armband to show, whilst in Civies, that they had attested and thereby avoided the white feather thing.

...But I understand that the armband  (see a sample in this previous thread) was meant to distinguish men who had attested under the Derby Scheme men up to the end of december 1915.

After the introduction of Conscription in 1916, I think the "white feather" phenomenon must have faded considerably: all  men in military age fit enough for service were called up, the exception being those skilled workers whose work was vital to the war effort.

Gloria

[andyspiller]

Gloria

Just checked Grandad's attestation card and is is stamped 21/08/1916 and noted armlet no xxxxx on the top.

Rgds

Andy

[mruk]

Many Thanks Ladies and Gentlemen,
                                                    I've heard of the armband before, but didn't realise it would be mentioned on the man's service documents, or issued as late as 1916. My Grandfather was also married by the time he enlisted under what was probably the Derby Scheme, which only adds to the confusion, because he had no real need to, and from what I understand of the conscription system, it was as Max [UK] suggests, based on age and marital status to a certain extent.  I can't post the photo of Pte. Christopher Stowe in DLI capbadge, although this was kindly done on my behalf by Graham Stewart on another thread, but if you look at the ages of some of the young lads on the front row, then I think you would agree that the photo was taken almost certainly before the end of 1916 [if not 1915], because of the mixed age group that are present . My Granddad was 24 in 1916. Again, it only adds to the confusion, but leads me to believe that he must have joined before the official papers state. I'm tempted to trawl through the NA-MIC and look for 'Stone' in case there is also something there. My Dad says my Grandfather had some sort of plaque with the name 'Stone' inscribed, and it may be a case that his 'earlier' service records are in the name of 'Stone'. Has anyone else come across a case of duel identity, or mistake in the spelling of the name on the Medal Index Cards?

Regards to All,
Dave

[andyspiller]

Dave

Interesting point about age. G-dad was 25 in 1916, but I have recently discovered that G-uncle Bert ALSO attested in Aug 1916 (at the age of 21), both were unmarried. I wonder if there was some sort of peer pressure thing going on here?

Rgds

Andy

[mruk]

Thanks Andy,
                   I think there must have been some peer pressure at some point [including sibling rivalry, perhaps], but unless in a reserved occupation, or on a point of objection, I still can't understand why some men of 25-26, single and married, were serving, while others were not--if you know what I mean. Family legend places my Granddad in Scarborough at the beginning of the war, and this ties-in with the area where the Leeds Rifles were on annual camp, and the inscription on my Grandfather's medals [8th West Yorks], but not with his service records and date of enlistment, or the reference I made earlier to the Durham Light Infantry--unless they were also in camp at Scarborough during the same time. My friend mentioned something about the tax office, and I'm wondering whether they would also keep records of employment for that time, and if they are accessible. It might not seem as far-fetched as it sounds, and I might give it a go.

Cheers,
Dave

[gporta]

Dave,

I'll search for an article which I have at home about Conscription: it gave a good overview about how Derby Scheme men were called, too.

On the other hand, up to 1916, if a man wasn't serving in the forces it was either because he had not volunteered, or had volunteered but wasn't considered fir for service, or had attested under the Derby Scheme but was in waiting for his "class" to be called up. Those not serving after 1916 could be because they weren't fit for service, or they were working in an occupation relevant to the war effort, or applied for exemption on CO grounds or some other reason... or had a good connection?

Gloria

[andyspiller]

Dave

Fitness may be part of this.....

G-dad was only passed as B1 and spent his war with the RGA in India, his bro went to France in March 1917 and was dead by the August.

One was a clerk in a builders merchant whilst the other worked in the Bible dept of the Cambridge University Press - neither that vital.

Andy

[mruk]

Thanks Andy,
                  The fitness aspect is certainly interesting, but would this have determined the unit served in, or the theatre of war that the soldier was sent--though recognising the difference between the Home Battalions, and those attached to the Labour Companies. It is said that my Grandfather was a miner before the war, and I know that many miners joined  en masse at the beginning of the war, so it would seem that working the coalface wasn't considered that vital either. I'm including an appeal for a 'Miners' Battalion', found in the Yorkshir Evening Post in 1914. It's not very clear, but I'm sure you get the general idea.

Kind Regards,
Dave

 mb3.jpg   95.6K   6 downloads

[andyspiller]

Dave

My understanding is that B1 men were sent to other parts of the Empire to relieve fit troops for service in Theatres of War.

Rgds

Andy

[gporta]

Andy,

It could depend of the circumstances, i.e. at the beginning of the war Territorial Units (with men fully fit for service) would go to India, etc, to replace Regular Units.

Men under "A" could serve in the front in the Labour Corps or the ASC, that is, for duties which didn't require the fitness needed for front-line fighting,  marching for miles wearing full kit, etc.  And I understand that B men eventually served in fighting duties, too (Specially in moments of manpower shortage)

(Also, check medical categories)

Gloria

[mruk]

Thanks Andy,
                   It seems your'e right, and I've just re-visited Charles Messenger who suggests the same thing, with a number of B1 men being sent to other parts to relieve those who were thought could play a more active role. Messenger doesn't say, though, [so far] whether the B1 men had already undergone training before being being categorised, which in your Grandfather's case would have been about four months. Did your Grandfather initially join the RGA, or would he have been drafted afterwards? I notice that your Gt Uncle Bert, along with other family members, appeared to serve with the same regiment. Again, family legend puts my Grandfather alongside my Gt. Uncle who was killed with the 10th West Yorks on the First Day of the Somme. The records suggest otherwise, with my Grandfather arriving in France on 16 July, where I also expect he underwent a further period of training, but have no way of knowing if this was customary or not. I understand there was a period of 'trench familiarisation' that most soldiers had to go through, and would this have been carried out in the front-line itself, as it seems with another young lad of the 10th who was killed later after only spending two weeks in France?

Kind Regards,
Dave

[andyspiller]

Dave

Without wishing to bore you....

QVR connection since 1903. TF, a part of the County of London Regt.

Harry MM d 1963
Bert
Reg d 1976

You could well be right about Jack - I will never know.

Rgds

Andy

[mruk]

Cheers Andy,
                   I've tried the link you've provided at the bottom of you page, but like any link I ever try, I just keep crashing. Would you have a webpage reference that I can try later please?

Thanks,
Dave

[andyspiller]

Dave

Works for me every time, maybe it is your guardians.

Try putting into your browser or typing

http://spiller.rootschat.net

Andy

[mruk]

 G.Smith__KOSB.jpg   5.2K   7 downloads

Thanks Andy,
                  This is a nice tribute. My Gt. Uncle died just short of a month after William Gurney, and is buried in Gaza War Cemetery. Pte. George Smith [201630] 1st/5th KOSB, 19-4-1917. I'd not noticed before, even after finding his obituary last week, but he 'died' in Egypt, though what of I'm not sure. He was 24, and had been in the army 9 years. I'm including the rather grainy photo that I found in the press.

Kind Regards,
Dave

[andyspiller]

Dave

amazing how sometimes we can claim shared "previous generation" experiences.

Bol

Andy