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Patzig's fate?


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#1 John Gilinsky

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 03:29 AM

Lt.-Commander Helmuth Patzig was the war time commander of U-86 which in June 1918 sank the Llandovery Castle. Does anyone know his 1919 to his death history and fate? In 1921 he fled because the Leipzig based German Supreme Court wanted to try him for murder. Did he end up in Argentina, Spain or Scandinavia? Did he ever return to Germany? Did he have relatvies with the same surname who served in World War Two?
Thanks,
John

#2 apwright

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 08:00 AM

He himself served in WW2, but only in staff and training posts.

According to a site I can't find now:
The trial against Patzig was stopped on March 20, 1931 in virtue of the laws of amnesty from July 14, 1927 and October 24, 1930 for all crimes of war which had a political character.
After recognizing his error
[i.e. sinking a hospital ship], the intention of the "criminal" action of Patzig [i.e. shooting at the survivors] was to avoid a new propaganda campaign against Germany. So the court considered that his action had a political character.

On his further career, there's this from http://perso.orange....arin/patzig.htm
QUOTE
Feb-Jun 40: On the Staff of the Befehslhaber der Unterseeboote
Jun-Sep 40: U-Boot base Lorient
Sep-Oct 40: U-Boot base Königsberg
Nov-Jan 41: Baubelehrung (supervising/advising on final construction) on U-D4 (captured Dutch O 26)
28 Jan - 15 Oct 41: Commander of U-D4 (trial/training sub only)
Nov 41 - Mar 43: Torpedo attack instructor at 25th U-Flottille
Apr 43 - Mar 45: Commander of 26th U-Flottille
1 Feb 44: Promoted (from Korvettenkpt.) to Fregattenkapitän
3 May 45: Demobbed


And there the trail goes cold.

Does this help?
Regards,
Adrian

#3 John Gilinsky

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 04:49 AM

QUOTE (apwright @ Dec 1 2006, 08:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He himself served in WW2, but only in staff and training posts.

According to a site I can't find now:
The trial against Patzig was stopped on March 20, 1931 in virtue of the laws of amnesty from July 14, 1927 and October 24, 1930 for all crimes of war which had a political character.
After recognizing his error
[i.e. sinking a hospital ship], the intention of the "criminal" action of Patzig [i.e. shooting at the survivors] was to avoid a new propaganda campaign against Germany. So the court considered that his action had a political character.

On his further career, there's this from http://perso.orange....arin/patzig.htm
And there the trail goes cold.

Does this help?
Regards,
Adrian


Yes it definitely helps though I generally knew that the Weimar Republic had officially legally repudiated much of the Liepzig war crimes trails results in the latter 1920s and early 30's before Hitler came to power and repudiated the entire Versailles Peace Treaty in 1933.

However I am NOT sure that the ww1 Patzig was the same as the WW2 U-boat Patzig. It is possible. If I remember from my notes Patzig was relatively old as a uboat commander in ww1 itself. I think he was born in the 1880s so that he would have been pretty old by ww2. There were of course Patzig families from the German Polish area (Danzig specificaly now Gdansk,Poland) and it is possible that the ww2 Patzig was a close enough relative.
Any of our German subscribers: can you help out?

#4 Michael Lowrey

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 06:35 AM

Helmut Patzig avoided prosecution because, in fact, he was in Danzig. He was born on October 26, 1890 and a relatively junior officer to be a submarine commander, especially one commanding a big U-series boat. He was also an Oberleutnant zur See, not a Kapitänleutnant, when in coomand of U 86 and U 90.

Best wishes,
Michael

#5 John Gilinsky

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 06:43 AM

QUOTE (Michael Lowrey @ Dec 2 2006, 06:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Helmut Patzig avoided prosecution because, in fact, he was in Danzig. He was born on October 26, 1890 and a relatively junior officer to be a submarine commander, especially one commanding a big U-series boat. He was also an Oberleutnant zur See, not a Kapitänleutnant, when in coomand of U 86 and U 90.

Best wishes,
Michael



Relative to the average age of uboat commanders he was NOT young though.
Thanks,
John

He may have avoided prosecution because his family was from Danzig but what happened if he travelled into or through Germany?

#6 Michael Lowrey

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 03:05 PM

QUOTE (John Gilinsky @ Dec 2 2006, 06:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Relative to the average age of uboat commanders he was NOT young though.


Officers became U-boat commanders when relatively near the top of the Oberleutnant zur See range or were Kapitänleutnants. Patzig was in Crew 4/10 (date entered the navy as a cadet). Only six of 423 WWI U-boat commanders entered the Kaiserliche Marine after that date. Crew 4/10 produced 29 U-commanders. The April inductions for 1900 through 1907 produced at least 20 each. Crew 4/08 produced 48 U-boats commanders; Crew 4/09 61. Patzig was older than some of the Crew 4/09 guys but none or very, very few of the Crew 4/08 commanders.

Best wishes,
Michael

#7 egbert

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 03:21 PM

If you are able to read German, there is a book about the trials and includes Patzig's trial:
http://209.85.129.10...V...=clnk&cd=11

#8 egbert

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 03:31 PM

As told earlier, Patzig fled to Freie Stadt Danzig and thus was not accessible for the German law courts; see unique status of Danzig here

#9 John Gilinsky

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 05:25 PM

QUOTE (egbert @ Dec 2 2006, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you are able to read German, there is a book about the trials and includes Patzig's trial:
http://209.85.129.10...V...=clnk&cd=11


Thanks so much for this latest book and probably the best from the German language review that I was able to decipher! Patzig's fate though is still somewhat mysterious. Presuming that he was the same man and that he was demobbed in May 45 what happened to him afterwards?
John

#10 John Gilinsky

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 10:55 AM

Close to 2 years since my last post to this thread and still NO answer? What about some of our German naval friends? What happneed to Patzig AFTER May 1945?
John
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#11 Clio

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 10:15 PM

John

Ron Young tells me that Patzig died on 11 March 1984. Furthermore, in an interview in the early 1980’s Patzig stated that he and his crew did not make any deliberate attempt to kill the survivors of the LLANDOVERY CASTLE. Where he got this information I do not know but he is usually reliable.



#12 John Gilinsky

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 02:37 AM

Clio: Thank you so much! I have sought this information for years. Now I only need to CONFIRM through verifiable documentation this ending of this man's life which I think he probably died in Germany (hopefully West!?) will not be too dificult. Anyone game for doing this (like some of our Deutschland GWF members)?
Danke!
John