Colour Sergeant Options

[Bootnecks]

Seph & Spoons,
Rank within the British Army is a study subject within it's own right and especially the grading of the NCO's over the centuries. It's interesting to hear you mention Lance Sergeants for the Guards, when in reality it was a rank found throughout infantry regiments of the British Army, which wasn't disgarded until 1947. In the Grenadier Guards however the term Lance wasn't used when mounting the Kings Guard, they were always known as Local Sergeant and Local Corporal.

I find is suprising that an RSM, should be offended at the term "Sergeant Major" when historically that rank reigned supreme throughout the Infantry of the Line and the Royal Marine Light Infantry for many, many years. The term RSM is young in comparison to that of "The Sergeant Major".

Then of course you have the obscure;- 2nd Corporal for the RE and RAOC, and how many of you ex-WO's who use the Forum are familiar with the rank of "WOIII".

Then there is of course the "Kings Corporal", which in reality is a myth as there is no such rank, nor has there ever been such a rank.

Graham.

Graham,

Your a treasure trove of info on rank structure. Whats your spec.... Napoleonic?

An RSM, being the only man with that rank in a battalion, will not (from my personal experiance) accept being lowered by one rank to a WO2 2nd class (Sgt-Maj). Before he earned the rank of WO2 1st class (RSM), he and a number of elegible candidates had sat in front of a selection board. He has earned the grading of WO2 1st class (RSM), and thus the right to be called... RSM. As I have already stated, he is the most respected man in the battalion, the most powerfull man in the battalion. The CO may be the figurehead on paper and in ranking, but the RSM runs a battalion.

Find any serving or former RSM's from any regiment, then ask them if they mind being known or addressed as Sgt-Maj! I hope you have a good servicable pair of trainers!

It's one of those perculiar respectabilities of rank that a serving soldier accepts and respects.

Seph

[SPotter]

Pals,

I have been looking for an excuse to post this photo, and this seems as good as any. It was taken in Bethune in 1916 and is of the CQMSs, CSMs, RQMS and RSM of the 1st Dorset Regt.

 Bethune_1916.jpg ( 97.99K ) Number of downloads: 5


Regards
Steve

[SPotter]

Aye,

Got there in the end! It was originally a 1 MB jpg - I thought as an Old Sweat I could post up to 300 mb files, but I've had to bring it down to 100. Hopefully it's still sufficently clear. Nice to know someone's watching anyway!

Steve

[squirrel]

A truly fascinating, absorbing and eductional thread.

Just an aside; it was made clear to me in polite but firm words by a Guards Drill Seajeant that he was to be called "sir". We were both civilians at the time!

On another occasion, while visiting a Guard's establishment, I was being "looked after" by the RQMS who took me for a coffee in the Warrant Officer's mess. The RSM entered and everybody stood to attention including me. He said "Good morning" to the WO's and then said "Good morning" to me. I replied "Good morning Sir".

When we left the mess the RQMS thanked me for addressing the RSM correctly as he would never had heard the last of it if I had not got it right.

[SPotter]

And for those in the know the gentleman seated at the right end of the front row is none other than CSM Ernest Shephard, whose book "A Sergeant Major's War - From Hill 60 to the Somme" I have quoted frequently here.

And the chap standing left is CSM Miller whose DCM and 1914 Star trio I was very pleased to acquire last year. He was promoted 2/Lieut in the 2nd S. Staffs and was KIA 25/3/18. Should anyone know the whereabouts of a JAMES MILLER plaque I would be delighted to here from them!

Regards
Steve

[Tom A McCluskey]

Seph,

Don't forget, nowadays, the Army has two badges for WOII depending on the appointment held.

1. Regimental Quarter Master Sergeant or equivalent - crown in laurel (I think all RM WOIIs wear this badge) - also not to be confused with CQMS (SSGt/CSgt equivalent). In many infantry regiments the RQMS stands in for the RSM, and is often the next RSM (again don't know about the RM). Apologies if granny is getting bored of the egg lesson

2. Sergeant Major or equivalents (not to be confused with the Guards RSM) - a large crown.

Briefly, prior to and into the Second World War, as Graham mentioned, there were: WOIIIs, WOIIs, and WOIs.

Due to WOIII not being officially abrogated, all of the appointments with a crown (old WOIII appointments) sit below all crown and laurel appointments in current Queen's Regulations. Crown and laurel appointments can amuse themselves (for a short while) by referring to large crown holders as the WO threes

Posted below are the Warrant Officers badges of the Army circa 1940

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

Attached File(s)

 Badges_of_rank_ww2.jpg ( 13.02K ) Number of downloads: 0

 

[GRUMPY]

[attachment=51727:attachment]


Going back to the post-1920's I did eventually find a reference to a Northumberland Fusilier Clr Sgt in a 1925 Sgt's Mess billiards match. The lad in question is Clr Sgt(Orderley Room Sgt) Gale, 1st Bn, N.F., Cologne 1925. His is the only reference made to a Colour Sergeant that I can find, and all those others around him are C.Q.M.S.'s. Unfortunately I don't have a Battalion Roll to check if he's supernumary.

Now would I be correct in assuming that he is actually a C.Q.M.S., holding the "appointment" of Clr Sgt(O.R.S.),who is obviously wearing three chevrons with crown above, in dress other than parade order? Also if on parade and wearing parade order, which would probably be confined to the band and Colour Party, would he still be entitled to wear a Colour Sergeants badge of rank or would he be wearing three gold chevrons with a crown above?

Graham.

Time for deep breath, talking infantry of the line only.

CQMS was an appointment for a soldier whose rank was CSgt. It was also possible for a Csgt to be appointed: a Musketry Instructor or an Orderly Room Sgt, although the latter was often a Staff Sgt 1st Class often referred to [just to keep you guessing] as a QMS!

Regarding the demise of the crossed flags, these were only ever for tunic order [what GS calls parade dress], all other orders of dress making do with the crown [in all cases above 3 chevrons] presumably for economy.

In practice, the crossed flags badge ceased to be worn in 1914, but survived in Clothing Regs [and possibly on Colour Parties] until 1926. I have a gap in my CR coverage, so all I can say is that the crossed flags had been officially dropped by CR 1936. Dawnay adds no more to the above, except to say that if the tunic were ever reintroduced, he supposes that the crossed flags would come back.

[Bootnecks]

Hello Chaps,

Does anyone feel as though things are going around in cirles here?

It's very apparent that through several periods, the rank structure of the British Army has been revamped several times. We have several experts within this thread from one period or another, especially Graham, who has been good enough to share his expertise. But what has also become apparent, is the fact that depending upon the regiment concerned, the various standard ranking of the time has been used in different ways to suit that particular regiment.

To illustrate.... In the RM's we call (for illustration only) three stripes with a crown, 'Colours'. The Guards call this rank 'Sir!'. Other regiments = Staff Sgt. If in the RM's this chap were to shout and stomp that we call him 'Sir!', he would be ribbed and have the P..s taken out of him something awful for having visions of grandure. The same can be said for the rank of 'RSM'. For each Commado Battalion, there is only one 'RSM' (WO.1)(before 'RSM' selection board = WO.2 1st class), but as he WORKS FOR A LIVING..... he also gets rather peeved when and if we call him 'SIR'. Other regiments as we have discussed treat that particular rank with either a lesser or higher esteem.

So, I think that we can safely assume that throughout each particular period in history, especially during the two World War periods and those gaps in between, a particular none commisioned rank, has not meant the same to all. Regimental structure and eticate seems to be the 'KEY'.

Could this possibly be a case of...'Last -WO- standing?'

Seph

[Graham Stewart]

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Tom,
Thanks for pinning up the ranking, and that of WOIII will come as a surprise to many.

What I'm trying to get at with my references to "Sergeant Major" pre-1915 and "Regimental Sergeant Major" post 1915, is that they are both "WOI's" (Guards apart as I believe they have one at Regimental level and one per battalion, hence the difference in the size of the rank badge). So I have attached the establishment to show what I'm trying to get across. On the introduction of the rank RSM(WOI) in 1915 for the infantry all SM's(WOI) at that time would have automatically become RSM's, as they were already in that position of rank. During that time theirs was not a lesser rank, but the same rank with a name change and change of rank badge.

When the BEF went to War in August 1914, they went with their officers and the Sgt Major at their head and over-night in 1915, these old sweats were now RSM's. I can only imagine what what would have been said at the time by some of these old boys while in the line, when the order came through.

So to conclude what I'm trying to say is, when noting references to Sgt Major so-and-so pre-1915, they are referring to a WOI, whose post 1915 equivalent is the RSM.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

 scan0007.jpg ( 53.95K ) Number of downloads: 4


A nice shot of Sergeant Major Wooll, 1st Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, India c.1910/11 wearing officers pattern tunic with gold lace on his collar and he wears the large crown rank badge on his right forearm. Now would you seriously consider that this man is of inferior rank to the post 1915 RSM?? They didn't have Nike trainers then, but I still wouldn't like to have fallen foul of him.

Graham.

Grumpy,
Is this the Indian pattern parade tunic?

[GRUMPY]

 scan0007.jpg ( 53.95K ) Number of downloads: 4



Grumpy,
Is this the Indian pattern parade tunic?

There were no 'tunics' in India except for the Viceroy's Band!

IP frocks can be distinguished by the crowsfoot lace on the cuff, and only five visible buttons if a belt were worn. Full Sgts and above had white piping to frock front edge [and sometimes other seams]. And CSgts [!!!!!!!!!!] wore the full colour badge on this garment because this was their 'parade' uniform.

I would also add that there may be a bit of confusion about Guards RSM badges. My understanding [incomplete!] is that currently the WO I appointed as the Acadamy SM wears the large Royal Arms with wreath, those appointed Sgt Major of a battalion, Superintending Clerks, Sgt Major Guards Depot and Garrison SM London District wear the large Royal Arms, and all other Guards WO I wear the conventional small arms on their lower sleeve.

[squirrel]

This gets better and better - excellent info and I reckon that Grumpy is right about the Guards RSM rank distinctions of today. Tallies with a book I have on the guards printed in the 1980's.

Incidentally, the Academy Sergeant Major at Sandhurst is known by the Ghurkas as the Atomic Sergeant Major as they have no word in Ghurkali for Academy; Atomic is the nearest translation.

To really raise eberyone's blood pressure what about the ranks in the Household cavalry? RQMCMH etc.?

[GRUMPY]

Garn! as they used to say!

I dont think you need the H: surely it is Regimental Quartermaster Corporal Major [but not 'of Horse, of course]

Mind you, I think you made it up.

I don't have a lot to do with the spit and polish donkey-wallopers. Both ends of a horse are dangerous, although I have a daughter who is a fully qualified Equitation Instructor PC in the Met.

[squirrel]

Grumpy,

point taken. A Lifeguards Corporal of Horse once attempted to explain the niceties of the rank structure of Household Cavalry to me. I was in a coma before he had finished shame to say. More to do with the presentation than the content to be truthful.

Sure that somebody on this forum could explain though.

[GRUMPY]

The first trick is to disregard the use of the crown for rank: treat it as a regimental arm badge [lots of Cavalry regts have NCO arm badges to a regimental design. My treatment is 'NOW' not 14-18.

The lowest NCO rank is LCpl. He wears two chevrons [crown above]

The next is LCpl of Horse. He is, in fact, paid as a Corporal, badged as a Cpl of Horse, three chevrons [crown above]. The point of this 'rank' is to enable him to belong to Messes when detached etc, and he also belongs to his regimental Mess. Think of him as a LSgt [current Guards and pr 1946 line infantry].

Next is Cpl of Horse. Same badge as above in most orders of dress, paid as a Sergeant, and a Senior NCO by any definition.

I could go on, but I expect there are errors in the above and invite correction.

[roymcp]

Gentlemen
Thanks one and all for their input. FYI My ancestor James McPherson enlisted in the Rooyal Marines in Dumfries in 1808 before moving to the Marines barracks in Woolwich. In March 1813 Corporal, Oct 1815 Sergeant, Aug 1826 Colour Sergeant and he retired as a Greenwich Hospital pensioner (the marines equivalent of the Chelsea pensioners?) in 1831. Sadly I've been unable to find his attestation records and all my information based upon the RM description book. He died in Mar 1875 in North Cray Kent.

Regards