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WW1 military issue billhook


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#26 Andrew Upton

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 02:23 PM

QUOTE (DaveBrigg @ Feb 14 2007, 12:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've just copied this from a post about trench raids, describing an action by 18th KRRC in July 1916. Can I assume that the hooks referred to are like the one being discussed here?
Party B 10 bombers, each carrying a knobkerrie & 10 bombs. Party C Lieut Wingfield & 9 men carrying knobkerries & hooks.


Sounds like it - I can imagine what the enemy's reaction would be if someone came at him with one of 'em! ohmy.gif

#27 Joe Sweeney

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 08:26 PM

Andrew,

Did a look through the 1893 PV of Stores (not 1894).

Could find no scabbard or similar contraption. I could easily still be looking under the wrong nomenclature.

I could give you the LoC numbers if want for the bill-hook.maye the scabbard just isn't called out separately. I kind of doubt since for common things the PV not only goes into end items but also repair parts.

There is a plethora of different type panniers, holdalls etc. Maybe the bill went into one of these?

Joe Sweeney

#28 6th Hauraki KIA KAHA

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 10:02 PM

Hi Andrew

I have not forgotten, Tim our store man has a copy from a manual and his made up one.
His wife is due to have a baby, so he has his mind on other things biggrin.gif I will post a photo of his one he made. and the illustration from the manual, once he has time to spare.

Jonathan

#29 Andrew Upton

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 12:44 AM

QUOTE (Joe Sweeney @ Feb 19 2007, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Andrew,

Did a look through the 1893 PV of Stores (not 1894).

Could find no scabbard or similar contraption. I could easily still be looking under the wrong nomenclature.

I could give you the LoC numbers if want for the bill-hook.maye the scabbard just isn't called out separately. I kind of doubt since for common things the PV not only goes into end items but also repair parts.

There is a plethora of different type panniers, holdalls etc. Maybe the bill went into one of these?

Joe Sweeney



QUOTE (6th Hauraki KIA KAHA @ Feb 19 2007, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Andrew

I have not forgotten, Tim our store man has a copy from a manual and his made up one.
His wife is due to have a baby, so he has his mind on other things biggrin.gif I will post a photo of his one he made. and the illustration from the manual, once he has time to spare.

Jonathan


Thanks Joe and Jonathan, look forward to seeing what it looks like eventually!

#30 Bombadier

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 05:15 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Upton @ Feb 20 2007, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks Joe and Jonathan, look forward to seeing what it looks like eventually!


Which, the scabbard or the baby laugh.gif

Sorry, off topic but couldn't resist it.

Nigel

#31 Andrew Upton

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 12:22 AM

QUOTE (Bombadier @ Feb 20 2007, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Which, the scabbard or the baby laugh.gif

Sorry, off topic but couldn't resist it.

Nigel


rolleyes.gif

#32 j.r.f

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 12:47 AM

just thought that you might be interseted.the bil hook pictured at the begining of this thread is a BRISTOL bill hook.Used in this area,non-military for hedging and ditching.Throughout the country there are dozens,posible hundreds of different paterns for the bill hook.
CHEERS

JOHN

#33 montbrehain

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 08:30 AM

this is worth looking at too.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billhook

#34 picardowoods

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 10:04 AM

Hi all

There was at least one issue case for billhooks I found listed in a Priced Vocab (NO Date, but circa 1875), for APPOINTMENTS AND TOOLS, PIONEERS, rather than Section 1 - Accoutrements.

Cases, leather, black.
Ordinary and valise equipment
Bill hook

Reasonably priced @ 3s 1d each

Carl

#35 Andrew Upton

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 04:30 PM

All good stuff, thanks again.

#36 Chris Henschke

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 09:46 AM

From 'Equipment of Infantry' HMSO, 1865.

Chris Henschke

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#37 walrus

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 11:36 AM

I think that it's worth bearing in mind that the billhook "cases" are not for general use but were part of the pioneer uniform (along with leather aprons and axe cases on slings). I feel it would be incorrect to assume the widespread use of these cases in the Great War.

Just my two penn'orth

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#38 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 12:49 PM

QUOTE (walrus @ Mar 18 2007, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that it's worth bearing in mind that the billhook "cases" are not for general use but were part of the pioneer uniform (along with leather aprons and axe cases on slings). I feel it would be incorrect to assume the widespread use of these cases in the Great War.

Just my two penn'orth

Tom the Walrus


I agree, as per my comments earlier in this thread.

Mick

#39 Andrew Upton

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE (Chris Henschke @ Mar 18 2007, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From 'Equipment of Infantry' HMSO, 1865.

Chris Henschke


Many thanks for that Chris - do you happen to know what the second "dot" is, the one that appears at the top of the stitching on the right hand side as you look at it? The higher dot would appear to be a brass post for closing the flap, but the point of the lower dot eludes me...


QUOTE (Joe Sweeney @ Mar 18 2007, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I looked under the nomenclature for "cases" and they do not appear in the 1893 through 1915 PV of Stores.

They were probably declared obsolete prior to that date--or the nomenclature changed to something I can't figure out.

I can see the need for one for safety and legal reason's (???)--the legal part astounds me--but would not assume that any survived issue into the Great War in any numbers if at all.

Joe Sweeney


Many thanks for that again, I should point out that the health and safety aspect of carrying a sharp tool about without a scabbard is what mostly prompted this thread, although given their appearance on the trench raids thread a while ago, I'm thinking of adding it to my trench raiders gear...

#40 Chris Henschke

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 03:27 PM

Judging by its position it is probably a reinforcing rivet.

#41 Andrew Upton

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:10 PM

QUOTE (Chris Henschke @ Mar 18 2007, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Judging by its position it is probably a reinforcing rivet.


Ah, of course! Thanks again.

#42 Chris Henschke

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 04:59 PM

There was a later case for the billhook : Case, black, bill-hook. (Mark II.)

'The "Case, bill-hook" differs from the previous pattern (§1944), in being a little smaller, to correspond with the reduced size of the latest pattern bill-hook (§10976).'
List of Change 10975, dated 4th April, 1901

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#43 Andrew Upton

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 05:01 PM

QUOTE (Chris Henschke @ Mar 26 2007, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There was a later case for the billhook : Case, black, bill-hook. (Mark II.)

“The “Case, bill-hook” differs from the previous pattern (§1944), in being a little smaller, to correspond with the reduced size of the latest pattern bill-hook (§10976).”

LOC 10975, dated 4th April, 1901

Chris Henschke


Thanks again.

#44 Joe Sweeney

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 06:26 PM

Andrew,

After seeing Chris's posts I went back to the "PV Stores" as those LoC numbers are too close to the war to have not been recorded.

Well I was wrong that this wasn't in the "PV of stores". I was looking in the wrong volumns.

"Case, Bill Hook" leather is in both the 1909 and 1915 versions.

It is found in Volumn II and is in a section 14 entitled "Horse and Field Artillery Carriages, and their Appurtenances". Cost 3s 2d.

Not where I would have expected, i.e some kind of accoutrement or camp impliment, and on the same page where you could cost a 13pdr carriage for £360.

So these things were definately available.

Joe Sweeney

#45 Andrew Upton

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 07:03 PM

QUOTE (Joe Sweeney @ Mar 26 2007, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Andrew,

After seeing Chris's posts I went back to the "PV Stores" as those LoC numbers are too close to the war to have not been recorded.

Well I was wrong that this wasn't in the "PV of stores". I was looking in the wrong volumns.

"Case, Bill Hook" leather is in both the 1909 and 1915 versions.

It is found in Volumn II and is in a section 14 entitled "Horse and Field Artillery Carriages, and their Appurtenances". Cost 3s 2d.

Not where I would have expected, i.e some kind of accoutrement or camp impliment, and on the same page where you could cost a 13pdr carriage for £360.

So these things were definately available.

Joe Sweeney


Excellent! Many thanks again! laugh.gif

#46 john in minnesota

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 12:05 AM

Here's a WW2 version currently on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

#47 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 02:10 PM

I know this is an old thread but I was wondering if anyone had anymore info or pictures of the leather carrier mentioned in post 44.

Mick

#48 coppertales

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:11 PM

I saw one of those billhooks at a gun show in Fort Worth last weekend. I wish I had read this thread beforehand. Also, it pains me to hear of all the de-activated firearms you guys have. At the gun show two weeks ago one table was selling a de-activated P-14. I now understand how the hole is drilled in the chamber of the barrel. Over here, this rifle is still considered a firearm as the receiver is not altered and can be restored to servicable condition....chris3

#49 Rob Bulloch

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 02:36 PM

I know this is an old thread, but I came across this list of Appointments and tools, Pioneers, and it mentions "Cases, Leather,Bill hook" Cheers Rob

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#50 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 08:18 AM

I bought this example of a French 'serpe' yesterday. Very nice piece.

Mick