66 replies to this topic

[Andrew Upton]

I've just copied this from a post about trench raids, describing an action by 18th KRRC in July 1916. Can I assume that the hooks referred to are like the one being discussed here?
Party B 10 bombers, each carrying a knobkerrie & 10 bombs. Party C Lieut Wingfield & 9 men carrying knobkerries & hooks.

Sounds like it - I can imagine what the enemy's reaction would be if someone came at him with one of 'em!  

[Joe Sweeney]

Andrew,

Did a look through the 1893 PV of Stores (not 1894).

Could find no scabbard or similar contraption. I could easily still be looking under the wrong nomenclature.

I could give you the LoC numbers if want for the bill-hook.maye the scabbard just isn't called out separately. I kind of doubt since for common things the PV not only goes into end items but also repair parts.

There is a plethora of different type panniers, holdalls etc. Maybe the bill went into one of these?

Joe Sweeney

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Hi Andrew

I have not forgotten, Tim our store man has a copy from a manual and his made up one.
His wife is due to have a baby, so he has his mind on other things   I will post a photo of his one he made. and the illustration from the manual, once he has time to spare.

Jonathan

[Andrew Upton]

Andrew,

Did a look through the 1893 PV of Stores (not 1894).

Could find no scabbard or similar contraption. I could easily still be looking under the wrong nomenclature.

I could give you the LoC numbers if want for the bill-hook.maye the scabbard just isn't called out separately. I kind of doubt since for common things the PV not only goes into end items but also repair parts.

There is a plethora of different type panniers, holdalls etc. Maybe the bill went into one of these?

Joe Sweeney

Hi Andrew

I have not forgotten, Tim our store man has a copy from a manual and his made up one.
His wife is due to have a baby, so he has his mind on other things   I will post a photo of his one he made. and the illustration from the manual, once he has time to spare.

Jonathan

Thanks Joe and Jonathan, look forward to seeing what it looks like eventually!

[Bombadier]

Thanks Joe and Jonathan, look forward to seeing what it looks like eventually!

Which, the scabbard or the baby  

Sorry, off topic but couldn't resist it.

Nigel

[Andrew Upton]

Which, the scabbard or the baby  

Sorry, off topic but couldn't resist it.

Nigel

[j.r.f]

just thought that you might be interseted.the bil hook pictured at the begining of this thread is a BRISTOL bill hook.Used in this area,non-military for hedging and ditching.Throughout the country there are dozens,posible hundreds of different paterns for the bill hook.
CHEERS

JOHN

[montbrehain]

this is worth looking at too....              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billhook

[picardowoods]

Hi all

There was at least one issue case for billhooks I found listed in a Priced Vocab (NO Date, but circa 1875), for APPOINTMENTS AND TOOLS, PIONEERS, rather than Section 1 - Accoutrements.

Cases, leather, black.
Ordinary and valise equipment
     Bill hook

Reasonably priced @ 3s 1d each

Carl

[Andrew Upton]

All good stuff, thanks again.

[Chris Henschke]

From 'Equipment of Infantry' HMSO, 1865.

Chris Henschke

Attached Files

•  Billhook.jpg   90.61K   0 downloads

[walrus]

I think that it's worth bearing in mind that the billhook "cases" are not for general use but were part of the pioneer uniform (along with leather aprons and axe cases on slings). I feel it would be incorrect to assume the widespread use of these cases in the Great War.

Just my two penn'orth

Tom the Walrus

[auchonvillerssomme]

I think that it's worth bearing in mind that the billhook "cases" are not for general use but were part of the pioneer uniform (along with leather aprons and axe cases on slings). I feel it would be incorrect to assume the widespread use of these cases in the Great War.

Just my two penn'orth

Tom the Walrus

I agree, as per my comments earlier in this thread.

Mick

[Andrew Upton]

From 'Equipment of Infantry' HMSO, 1865.

Chris Henschke

Many thanks for that Chris - do you happen to know what the second "dot" is, the one that appears at the top of the stitching on the right hand side as you look at it? The higher dot would appear to be a brass post for closing the flap, but the point of the lower dot eludes me...

I looked under the nomenclature for "cases" and they do not appear in the 1893 through 1915 PV of Stores.

They were probably declared obsolete prior to that date--or the nomenclature changed to something I can't figure out.

I can see the need for one for safety and legal reason's (???)--the legal part astounds me--but would not assume that any survived issue into the Great War in any numbers if at all.

Joe Sweeney

Many thanks for that again, I should point out that the health and safety aspect of carrying a sharp tool about without a scabbard is what mostly prompted this thread, although given their appearance on the trench raids thread a while ago, I'm thinking of adding it to my trench raiders gear...

[Chris Henschke]

Judging by its position it is probably a reinforcing rivet.

[Andrew Upton]

Judging by its position it is probably a reinforcing rivet.

Ah, of course! Thanks again.

[Chris Henschke]

There was a later case for the billhook : Case, black, bill-hook. (Mark II.)

'The "Case, bill-hook" differs from the previous pattern (§1944), in being a little smaller, to correspond with the reduced size of the latest pattern bill-hook (§10976).'
List of Change 10975, dated 4th April, 1901

Chris Henschke

[Andrew Upton]

There was a later case for the billhook : Case, black, bill-hook. (Mark II.)

“The “Case, bill-hook” differs from the previous pattern (§1944), in being a little smaller, to correspond with the reduced size of the latest pattern bill-hook (§10976).”

LOC 10975, dated 4th April, 1901

Chris Henschke

Thanks again.

[Joe Sweeney]

Andrew,

After seeing Chris's posts I went back to the "PV Stores" as those LoC numbers are too close to the war to have not been recorded.

Well I was wrong that this wasn't in the "PV of stores". I was looking in the wrong volumns.

"Case, Bill Hook" leather is in both the 1909 and 1915 versions.

It is found in Volumn II and is in a section 14 entitled "Horse and Field Artillery Carriages, and their Appurtenances". Cost 3s 2d.

Not where I would have expected, i.e some kind of accoutrement or camp impliment, and on the same page where you could cost a 13pdr carriage for £360.

So these things were definately available.

Joe Sweeney

[Andrew Upton]

Andrew,

After seeing Chris's posts I went back to the "PV Stores" as those LoC numbers are too close to the war to have not been recorded.

Well I was wrong that this wasn't in the "PV of stores". I was looking in the wrong volumns.

"Case, Bill Hook" leather is in both the 1909 and 1915 versions.

It is found in Volumn II and is in a section 14 entitled "Horse and Field Artillery Carriages, and their Appurtenances". Cost 3s 2d.

Not where I would have expected, i.e some kind of accoutrement or camp impliment, and on the same page where you could cost a 13pdr carriage for £360.

So these things were definately available.

Joe Sweeney

Excellent! Many thanks again!  

[john in minnesota]

Here's a WW2 version currently on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bill-H00k_W0QQitemZ290...1QQcmdZViewItem

[auchonvillerssomme]

I know this is an old thread but I was wondering if anyone had anymore info or pictures of the leather carrier mentioned in post 44.

Mick

[coppertales]

I saw one of those billhooks at a gun show in Fort Worth last weekend.  I wish I had read this thread beforehand.  Also, it pains me to hear of all the de-activated firearms you guys have.  At the gun show two weeks ago one table was selling a de-activated P-14.  I now understand how the hole is drilled in the chamber of the barrel.  Over here, this rifle is still considered a firearm as the receiver is not altered and can be restored to servicable condition....chris3

[Rob Bulloch]

I know this is an old thread, but I came across this list of Appointments and tools, Pioneers, and it mentions  "Cases, Leather,Bill hook"  Cheers Rob

Attached Files

•  Postcard_2__Small___2_.jpg   50.25K   0 downloads

[auchonvillerssomme]

I bought this example of a French 'serpe' yesterday. Very nice piece.

Mick