274 replies to this topic

[westkent78]

Pat Atkins, on 10 July 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

My great-uncle, William Atkins, served with 1/23 London Regt and was also killed in action aged 20 on 26th May 1915, and is commemorated at Le Touret. I guess this isn't very useful as I have no details of his service or the circumstances of his death, sorry.

As a point of general interest one of his brothers, Herbert Atkins (23), died on the same day but in Gallipoli with 2nd Royal Fusiliers; of his other two brothers who survived the War one (my grandfather) was made POW at Le Cateau in 1914 and the other joined up the same month his brothers were killed, I believe.

Hello Pat,

Assuming we are talking about 1313 William Frederick Atkins, he was in D Company and probably joined up on 12th Feb 1912.  Check the previous pages in this thread and you should find some links to the goings on at Givenchy on 26th May.

You may be able to help though, as knowing his parents' names or the names of his siblings would help me track him down in the 1901 or 1911 census.

Best regards,
Matthew

[Pat Atkins]

westkent78, on 10 July 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Hello Pat,

Assuming we are talking about 1313 William Frederick Atkins, he was in D Company and probably joined up on 12th Feb 1912.  Check the previous pages in this thread and you should find some links to the goings on at Givenchy on 26th May.

You may be able to help though, as knowing his parents' names or the names of his siblings would help me track him down in the 1901 or 1911 census.

Best regards,
Matthew

Thanks very much for this help, Matthew. His middle name was Frederick, so probably it's the same man. His father's name was Charles Atkins, and he had at least three brothers (all soldiers): John Charles Atkins (5th Divisional Signallers RE, POW at Le Cateau), and Herbert Atkins (KIA Gallipoli), plus a younger brother Percy who I believe joined up some time around the date his brothers were killed. The family came from the Fleet St area but probably lived in Battersea or Clapham in the pre-war period. John Charles Atkins was a pre-war regular who may have served as a boy soldier prior to the RE, although this is not borne out by any evidence I can find.

Thanks again, it's much appreciated.

[westkent78]

Pat Atkins, on 16 July 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Thanks very much for this help, Matthew. His middle name was Frederick, so probably it's the same man. His father's name was Charles Atkins, and he had at least three brothers (all soldiers): John Charles Atkins (5th Divisional Signallers RE, POW at Le Cateau), and Herbert Atkins (KIA Gallipoli), plus a younger brother Percy who I believe joined up some time around the date his brothers were killed. The family came from the Fleet St area but probably lived in Battersea or Clapham in the pre-war period. John Charles Atkins was a pre-war regular who may have served as a boy soldier prior to the RE, although this is not borne out by any evidence I can find.

Thanks again, it's much appreciated.

Hello Pat,

Found him. He was living in 1911 with his father, a police pensioner & timekeeper at a printers, and his younger brother Percy at 3 Clarence Cottages, Stockwell. He was an off-license porter. Thanks very much.

Best regards,
Matthew

[Pat Atkins]

Thanks again, Matthew. It's very kind of you (and others on this forum) to share your knowledge like this. I'm trying to build up a picture of the brothers' (my grandfather and his brothers, that is) service in the Great War, and everything helps.

Pat

[Bethrose]

Hi Matthew,

I'm looking for information on Private John O'Rourke who served in the 1st/23rd Battalion, London Regiment, and died on 16/09/1916. He was my great-grandfather. His service number was 700790. He has no known grave but is remembered at the Thiepval Memorial.

If you have any information about his movements before his death or any photographs/records I would be very grateful.

Thank you,

Beth.

[westkent78]

Hello Beth,

He enlisted at Clapham Junction around 23rd-25th September 1914 as number 3123. He did not go to France until 21st April 1916, and probably didn't reach 1/23rd until 28th or 30th May. The war diary can be found under East Surrey Regiment here: http://qrrarchive.we...menu1.aspx?li=1

Could you please tell me his parents names and any siblings so I can find him in the 1911 census?

Best regards,
Matthew

[Bethrose]

Thank you Matthew, it means a lot to have more information. John's father was Mr Bernard O'Rourke. John lived at 24 Holyoak Road when he was married to Lily Elizabeth Lipscombe on 25th/26th December 1910. They lived at 7 Aboyne Road, Garrett Lane, Tooting when my grandmother Gweneth Nora Arden was born on 8th March 1912. I have a few more addresses; they seemed to move an awful lot!

I have his service records, 1911 census and war graves certificate if you would like me to email them to you. I would really love to have a photo of him, but I don't think anything like that was kept by the family, which is a shame.

Thanks again for your help.

Kind regards,
Beth

[gordon92]

Matthew,

Could you check the war diary to see if there is any mention of Captain John Evelyn Thornhill, Seaforth Highlanders who was the battalion's Adjutant until late-September 1915?

Thanks in advance.

Mike

[andrew.gillsfc]

My great grandfather's brother Albert Edward Martin 1772 was with the 1/23 London Regiment, died on 18/8/14 of phneumonia and is buried in Wandsworth Cemetery.  I was told he was the first casualty of WW1 for this regiment.  Not sure if true?

I do not have a photo of him sadly.

Andrew

[westkent78]

Bethrose, on 17 December 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Thank you Matthew, it means a lot to have more information. John's father was Mr Bernard O'Rourke. John lived at 24 Holyoak Road when he was married to Lily Elizabeth Lipscombe on 25th/26th December 1910. They lived at 7 Aboyne Road, Garrett Lane, Tooting when my grandmother Gweneth Nora Arden was born on 8th March 1912. I have a few more addresses; they seemed to move an awful lot!

I have his service records, 1911 census and war graves certificate if you would like me to email them to you. I would really love to have a photo of him, but I don't think anything like that was kept by the family, which is a shame.

Thanks again for your help.

Kind regards,
Beth

Hello Beth,
I've now found his papers too. Good to see that my estimations were accurate. Interesting that he had prior service in the 4th East Surrey Volunteers which became 23rd London in 1908, and rejoined them in 1914. Thanks for the family information. There might be a chance that his photo appears in a local newspaper or the Territorial Gazette given that he was only listed as missing for some time after September 1916, hopefully they'll be put online soon.

Best regards,
Matthew

andrew.gillsfc, on 18 December 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

My great grandfather's brother Albert Edward Martin 1772 was with the 1/23 London Regiment, died on 18/8/14 of phneumonia and is buried in Wandsworth Cemetery.  I was told he was the first casualty of WW1 for this regiment.  Not sure if true?

I do not have a photo of him sadly.

Andrew

Hello again Andrew,

It was me that told you he was the first casualty. Still haven't found anything to disuade me of this.

Matthew

[westkent78]

gordon92, on 18 December 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Matthew,

Could you check the war diary to see if there is any mention of Captain John Evelyn Thornhill, Seaforth Highlanders who was the battalion's Adjutant until late-September 1915?

Thanks in advance.

Mike

Hello Mike,

Well, he was signing quite a few of the war diaries, but no mentions really until his transfer to 4th RWF.  Do you know how he died at Gibraltar in 1918, or of his career once he left 1/23rd?

Matthew

[gordon92]

westkent78, on 18 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Hello Mike,

Well, he was signing quite a few of the war diaries, but no mentions really until his transfer to 4th RWF.  Do you know how he died at Gibraltar in 1918, or of his career once he left 1/23rd?

Matthew

Matthew,

Yes, here are some details on John Evely Thornhill after leaving 23rd London:
From October to December 1915 he commanded the 8th Seaforth Highlanders receiving the temporary rank of Lieutenant-Colonel. Gazetted a Member of the Distinguished Service Order (DSO) in January 1916. A few months later, in July 1916 he was invalided home and in July 1917 he was appointed as General Staff Officer to the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Forces, Viscount French.  In 1918 John Thornhill was gazetted to be Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel and sent to join the Egyptian Expeditionary Force as a General Staff Officer. However on the voyage out he was taken seriously ill and died in hospital on Wednesday 2^nd October 1918 at the age of 38 years probably of the Spanish Flu. He was buried in Gibraltar (North Front) Cemetery in Gibraltar.

I had been unaware that Thornhill had served with 4th RWF.  Everything I have indicated he went from 23rd London to 8th Seaforth in Sept 1915.  Would you be able to furnish a specific notation on this from the war diary?  My interest in Thornhill derives from the fact that part of his full dress uniform is in my collection.

Mike

[westkent78]

Mike,

Found an entry for him going on leave 16th July 1915, but no mention when he returned, but he signed off on the July war diary. The official history has him temporarily commanding 1/23rd too for a couple of weeks before Major Newman transferred in on 16th Sept. Thornhill transferred to 4th RWF on 24th Sept 1915 at Les Brebis. Looks like he may just have been space-filling at 4th RWF until he got his full time birth at 8th Seaforths in October.

Matthew

Attached Files

•  Thornhill 24th Sept.png   16K   2 downloads

[gordon92]

westkent78, on 19 December 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Mike,

Found an entry for him going on leave 16th July 1915, but no mention when he returned, but he signed off on the July war diary. The official history has him temporarily commanding 1/23rd too for a couple of weeks before Major Newman transferred in on 16th Sept. Thornhill transferred to 4th RWF on 24th Sept 1915 at Les Brebis. Looks like he may just have been space-filling at 4th RWF until he got his full time birth at 8th Seaforths in October.

Matthew

Thank you, Matthew.  This helps.  I will be receiving the war diary of 8th Seaforth momentarily.  I will check to see  when Thornhill took over command of that Bn and let you know what I find.

Mike

[gordon92]

Matthew,

The following is an excerpt from the 8th Seaforth war diary 28 September 1915 regarding arrival of Thornhill to take over command:



So, his command of 4th RWF lasted 4 days and likely did not occur at all.

Mike

[westkent78]

Thanks Mike,

I wonder what the 4th RWF diary says? Once they get digitized I'll be downloading it anyway as they're part of 47th Division so we'll have hopefully have his transfer  fully documented.

Matthew

[gordon92]

westkent78, on 20 December 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Thanks Mike,

I wonder what the 4th RWF diary says? Once they get digitized I'll be downloading it anyway as they're part of 47th Division so we'll have hopefully have his transfer  fully documented.

Matthew

Matthew,

I would be interested to see what the 4RWF diary says about this also.  Any idea when it will be digitized?

Mike

[westkent78]

Hopefully released sometime next year.

[havoc5]

Hello Matthew,
I recently put up a post regarding Captain Hugh Hamilton Keay MC of the 23rd London. His number as a Pte was 2559. I have his Tankard here that I have been researching. Interesting stuff. You more than likely have his details, if so I am still interested in any further details you may be ablke to provide.
Best regards,
Clive.

[westkent78]

Hello Clive,

Can't add too much that you don't already have. You'll need a 16th London's expert to tell you when he would have signed up. If I look at the 23rd London that number would have been an early September 1914 enlistee, but I suspect the more fashionable 16th Londons would have issued that number in August or sooner.

He was serving with 2/4th East Lancashire Regt when he won the MC.

Thought long and hard about that MC group, but opted not to in the end being that it wasn't earned directly with 23rd London.

Best regards,
Matthew

[havoc5]

Hello Matthew,

Yes he was attached to the 2/3 East Lancs, as stated on his Tankard its from his Pals in the 11th Queens. All interesting stuff.

The medals were a little out of my reach unfortunatley, would have loved to have had them to go with the Tankard. I have now decided to try and see if the auction winner would like to take the Tankard as well. Im waiting on a reply from the auction house. Thanks for your reply Matthew, and good luck with your research,

Best regards,

Clive.

[peter19]

I have the memorial scroll for Frederick William Ballard of th 23rd London's who was kia 22 Aug 1918.I wonder if you have the war diary entry for the days leading up to his death. A photo of the gentleman I suppose is too much too expect?

[westkent78]

Peter,

Here's a link to the war diary, just go East Surrey and 1/23rd. http://qrrarchive.we...menu1.aspx?li=1 You might have to copy it into your browser.

He's an interesting candidate, have enlisted in 8th London, been shipped in a draft from the UK ostensibly to 15th London, and then probably taken from the Infantry Depot with about 70 other '15th' men and sent to 1/23rd London on 24th April 1918.

Haven't come across a photo yet I'm afraid.

Best regards,
Matthew

[peter19]

Matthew,  many thanks for that, it is just what I was looking for.   I really do not want to show my ignorance, but here goes anyway!   Why is a London Regiment war diary under that of the East  Surrey Regiment ?
Peter19

[westkent78]

Peter,

It's because they were affiliated with the East Surreys, having been one of their volunteer battalions prior to the turn of the century.