274 replies to this topic

[westkent78]

Some of you may be aware of this, but for those who aren't, I am compiling a database of all the men who joined the 23rd Londons in the Great War.

I currently have over 3,000 individuals identified and my nominal roll continues to grow each month, but there is definitely a long way to go.

Any information, however insignificant it may seem, is gratefully received.

If you are researching another regiment and come across someone who served for a period in the 23rd Londons I like to hear from you with any details you care to share.

I am also in a position to undertake look-ups in the war diary, regimental history and 47th Division History.

Matthew

[erniecrisp]

Matthew

have you sourced the medal rolls; partic the BWM/Victort Roll; I have done a similar exercise for the 5th Londons and found about 5000 on the rolls ( including Stars & SWB)
Chris

[Neil Clark]

If you find any men on any of my websites with photos or other info you want, just PM me and I will be delighted to help out... As you can imagine, quite a few former Buffs/RWKR  men ended up serving in the 23rd London's.

[westkent78]

Matthew

have you sourced the medal rolls; partic the BWM/Victort Roll; I have done a similar exercise for the 5th Londons and found about 5000 on the rolls ( including Stars & SWB)
Chris

Hello Chris,

Getting photos of the medal rolls is my number one priority for the next time I'm in the UK.

Last time I was at the NA I copied some pages but the visit was more to get acquainted with what's available and see the size of the task I've set myself- 900+ pages in the medal rolls alone not including SWBs. So some soul-destroying, backaching labour is definitely in my future- and that's not even considering the men who began with the 23rd and transferred to other regiments. It'll be worth it when completed though.

Best regards,
Matthew

[westkent78]

If you find any men on any of my websites with photos or other info you want, just PM me and I will be delighted to help out... As you can imagine, quite a few former Buffs/RWKR  men ended up serving in the 23rd London's.

Thanks for the offer Neil.

I'd been meaning to pm you anyway about some RWK stuff. I'll see what I can dig up and send it to you.

best regards,
Matthew

[debby]

Hello Matthew, I'm new to this but would appreciate a look up.  I started off just wanting to find out where my grandad was injured and now I'm trying to find out every detail of his experience.  My grandad was with the 3rd city of london battalion which was transferred to the 47th division on 16 november 1915 until the 9th february 1916 if you are able to give me any details of their actions during this time I'de appreciate it.  Regards Debbie

[Michael]

The BWM/VM rolls reveal the following transfers to the Buffs. The Buffs numbers are very high and it is possible that they never went overseas with them.

There are no entries in the 1914/15 star roll.

G35891 PTE JONES ROBERT 44093 2/23BN LONDON
L12282 PTE STOCKEN OLIVE 700600 2/23BN LONDON 327518 2/9BN DLI 587788 974 L OF C COY LAB C 327518 2/5BN DLI
L12395 PTE COTES CH 49493 2/23BN LONDON
L12396 PTE DAWKINS JH 26542 1/23BN LONDON

Good luck with the database.
I now have over 30,000 individuals in mine and I think I've got everyone.

Mick

I should add that 974 L of C Coy Lab C is my shorthand for 974 Lines of Communication Company, Labour Corps.

[westkent78]

Hello Matthew, I'm new to this but would appreciate a look up.  I started off just wanting to find out where my grandad was injured and now I'm trying to find out every detail of his experience.  My grandad was with the 3rd city of london battalion which was transferred to the 47th division on 16 november 1915 until the 9th february 1916 if you are able to give me any details of their actions during this time I'de appreciate it.  Regards Debbie

Hello Debbie,

I don't know much about the 3rd Londons and they aren't mentioned in 47th Division's history, but luckily there are a few mentions in 1/23rd London's war diary as 3rd London was attached to them from 16th December 1915. The 3rd had suffered such severe casualties that they were attached as an additional company while they recuperated. The 23rd were alternating between the trenches and reserve areas around Loos.
If you pm me your email address I'll send you what I have.

Best regards,
Matthew



Thanks Mick. That's a great help.

I've pm'd you.
Best regards,
Matthew

[erniecrisp]

434 Guernsey Herbert Harold Sergeant 23 London 702068 2/23 L 26,6,16
483 Gilson Trevor Henry Private 23 London 2/23 L 26,6,16
489 Moore Philip Arnold Private 23 London 2/23 L 26,6,16
566 Ranwell Frederick A/CQMS 23 London 2/23 L 26,6,16
839 Gearing Jack Reginald Private 23 London 2/23 L 26,6,16
856 Kerry Walter James L/Corporal 23 London 2/23 L 26,6,16
908 Sothers Charles Gerald Corporal 23 London 5272 C'd Middx R
1060 Cheeseman Frederick Gordon Corporal 23 London 702061 2/23 L 26,6,16
1171 White Harold L/Corporal 23 London 702099 2/23 L 26,6,16 DW 9,11,17
1601 Fisher Charles Alfred Private 23 London 702065 23 L 26,6,16 DW 15,3,18
9403 Wayland Stanley Henry Private 23 London 702098 2/23 L 26,6,16 DW 29,3,18
304681 Dodd Douglas E Private 23 London 718378

Bit messy; transfer from an excel file but these men transferred from 5th to 2/23 Londons; probably via 101 Provisional Bttn later 30 Londons, because they originally did not agree to serve overseas; all of them are 1914 enlistments
Chris

[westkent78]

Bit messy; transfer from an excel file but these men transferred from 5th to 2/23 Londons; probably via 101 Provisional Bttn later 30 Londons, because they originally did not agree to serve overseas; all of them are 1914 enlistments
Chris

Thank you very much Chris. I wasn't aware of any of these men having prior service with the 5th, so that's very welcome. I assume the "26,6,16" is the date of entry when 2/23rd went overseas rather than date of transfer to the 23rd?

Best regards,
Matthew

[erniecrisp]

That's right; extracts from my work on drafts to other units from 5th;

Postings to the 60th Division ( 2/23rd London R. )  - February 1916

     In December 1915, former 1st and 2nd Battalion men who changed their minds and signed on for foreign service had been posted to the 101st Provisional Battalion at Ipswich. The following February these men were transferred to the 2/23rd London Regiment (the Queens ) as part of the rapid mustering of the 60th ( 2nd/2nd London ) Division to get it up to establishment in order for it to go overseas in June 1916.

     However, after protracted complaints by the LRB men who had reasonable expectations that they would be posted to their 1st Battalion, since they had just given up their right to home service only as Territorial soldiers, the Authorities simply gave the men the right to chose which Regiment to join in the 60th Division. Some of the men opted for the 2/14th London Regiment ( London Scottish, and others for the 2/16th London Regiment ( Queen’s Westminster Rifles ), but many others chose to stay with the 2/23rd.

     In many instances, the former LRB men were posted in the platoons to which they were assigned when they enlisted, and therefore can reasonably be expected to have been given near or consecutive LRB Army Numbers. Sometimes a real mixture of Serial Numbers is seen reflecting a different type of group of men, often returning veterans who had recovered from wounds or sickness, or former instructors etc.. The  60th Division postings illustrate both types of drafts.

London       Date of     Max. Potential No. of men in draft   No.      Significant         Casualties      
Regiment      Draft to    from 6 digit Nos.-from 4 digit Nos.  on        LRB Army        Total (1916)
     F/F         1917 Range           1916 Range        Roll     Nos. Range        

2/13th Bn.   22.6.16             94        86                 76       3500-3675        20      ( 8 )  

2/21st Bn.   25.6.16 80        76                 22       3100-3200        15      ( 3 )        
2/22nd Bn.  25.6.16           106               100                  69       3400-3530        18       ( 1 )              

2/23rd Bn.  26.6.16     38                 36                 25          Mix                 3                        

Note. The size of the draft to the 2/23rd Battalion of the London Regiment is
      probably larger than the range used for the above analysis to compensate for the
      presence of a few 8th London ( Post Office Rifles ) Regiment men interspersed with
     the former LRB men. Whilst they  obviously can be discounted in determining the
     actual number of LRB men on the Roll, the extrapolated maximum size of the draft
      may of course include other Post Office Rifle men. The figures for the maximum
      potential size of the LRB draft to this Battalion are therefore to be treated with a
      little circumspection.

     A number of interesting factors emerge from this analysis. It is known that the total draft to the 60th Division was about 300 men. The maximum number of men who could have been posted to the 13th, 21st, and 22nd London Regiments was 305 ( calculated by adding the maximum potential number of men for those three regiments - from the 1917 ranges of Army Numbers for those Regiments - to the 25 known LRB men on the 23rd London Regiment’s Roll. In total, it has been possible to identify 167 former LRB men posted to the 60th Division in this draft, that is, just over half of them. ( plus of course the remaining 2/13th men listed on the menu referred to earlier ).

Hope this is not complete gibberish but alwys a bit of a problem when out of context
Chris

[erniecrisp]

That's right; extracts from my work on drafts to other units from 5th;

Postings to the 60th Division ( 2/23rd London R. )  - February 1916

     In December 1915, former 1st and 2nd Battalion men who changed their minds and signed on for foreign service had been posted to the 101st Provisional Battalion at Ipswich. The following February these men were transferred to the 2/23rd London Regiment (the Queens ) as part of the rapid mustering of the 60th ( 2nd/2nd London ) Division to get it up to establishment in order for it to go overseas in June 1916.

     However, after protracted complaints by the LRB men who had reasonable expectations that they would be posted to their 1st Battalion, since they had just given up their right to home service only as Territorial soldiers, the Authorities simply gave the men the right to chose which Regiment to join in the 60th Division. Some of the men opted for the 2/14th London Regiment ( London Scottish, and others for the 2/16th London Regiment ( Queen’s Westminster Rifles ), but many others chose to stay with the 2/23rd.

     In many instances, the former LRB men were posted in the platoons to which they were assigned when they enlisted, and therefore can reasonably be expected to have been given near or consecutive LRB Army Numbers. Sometimes a real mixture of Serial Numbers is seen reflecting a different type of group of men, often returning veterans who had recovered from wounds or sickness, or former instructors etc.. The  60th Division postings illustrate both types of drafts.

London       Date of     Max. Potential No. of men in draft   No.      Significant         Casualties      
Regiment      Draft to    from 6 digit Nos.-from 4 digit Nos.  on        LRB Army        Total (1916)
     F/F         1917 Range           1916 Range        Roll     Nos. Range        

2/13th Bn.   22.6.16             94        86                 76       3500-3675        20      ( 8 )  

2/21st Bn.   25.6.16 80        76                 22       3100-3200        15      ( 3 )        
2/22nd Bn.  25.6.16           106               100                  69       3400-3530        18       ( 1 )              

2/23rd Bn.  26.6.16     38                 36                 25          Mix                 3                        

Note. The size of the draft to the 2/23rd Battalion of the London Regiment is
      probably larger than the range used for the above analysis to compensate for the
      presence of a few 8th London ( Post Office Rifles ) Regiment men interspersed with
     the former LRB men. Whilst they  obviously can be discounted in determining the
     actual number of LRB men on the Roll, the extrapolated maximum size of the draft
      may of course include other Post Office Rifle men. The figures for the maximum
      potential size of the LRB draft to this Battalion are therefore to be treated with a
      little circumspection.

     A number of interesting factors emerge from this analysis. It is known that the total draft to the 60th Division was about 300 men. The maximum number of men who could have been posted to the 13th, 21st, and 22nd London Regiments was 305 ( calculated by adding the maximum potential number of men for those three regiments - from the 1917 ranges of Army Numbers for those Regiments - to the 25 known LRB men on the 23rd London Regiment’s Roll. In total, it has been possible to identify 167 former LRB men posted to the 60th Division in this draft, that is, just over half of them. ( plus of course the remaining 2/13th men listed on the menu referred to earlier ).

Hope this is not complete gibberish but alwys a bit of a problem when out of context
Chris

NB In searching for former LRB men I obtained quite a number of copy BWM/Vict medal roll sheets from NA including sheets 251 - 306 for 23rd Londons Nos 701952 - 702340; if you need any lookups

[GavinH]

Here's are some details for 6880 Pte Albert Ernest Boxall of the 1/23rd London Regt.  


Medal card:
Pte Albert E Boxall
23rd London Regiment 6880
Essex Regiment 203154
King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry 65107
Pair - O/2/103B 24 Page 3093

Medal Roll WO329/1465:
65107 Pte Albert Ernest Boxall - 6880 Pte 1/23rd London R., 203154 11th Essex R., 65107 15th GB Yorks L.I. - Dis. 29/3/19  

Regards,
Gavin

[westkent78]

Gavin:

Thanks for Boxall's details. It's greatly appreciated. There are a couple of other Boxalls serving in the 23rd so I'll have to do some checking to see if they're related to Albert.

Best regards,
Matthew

Hope this is not complete gibberish but alwys a bit of a problem when out of context
Chris

Chris,

Thanks for that explanation. I think it makes sense but I'll have to review it in more detail tomorrow. I'll pm you about those medal roll extracts.

Best regards,
Matthew

[andyp]

Hi Matthew
I am interested in Lewis Bernard Silverstein, a clerk in the Civil Service from Putney,  who after service with the QVRs in France in 1914/15 appears to have been transferred to the 1/23 Londons and went back to France on 15 May 1916.
He died aged 19 on 16 September 1916 in the vicinity of High Wood.
He is listed in the British Jewry Book of Honour but without a photo.
A look up of anything you have on him would be much appreciated.
Andyp

[debby]

Hello Debbie,

I don't know much about the 3rd Londons and they aren't mentioned in 47th Division's history, but luckily there are a few mentions in 1/23rd London's war diary as 3rd London was attached to them from 16th December 1915. The 3rd had suffered such severe casualties that they were attached as an additional company while they recuperated. The 23rd were alternating between the trenches and reserve areas around Loos.
If you pm me your email address I'll send you what I have.

Best regards,
Matthew
Thanks Mick. That's a great help.

I've pm'd you.
Best regards,
Matthew

thanks Matthew
my email is

[westkent78]

Hi Matthew
I am interested in Lewis Bernard Silverstein, a clerk in the Civil Service from Putney,  who after service with the QVRs in France in 1914/15 appears to have been transferred to the 1/23 Londons and went back to France on 15 May 1916.
He died aged 19 on 16 September 1916 in the vicinity of High Wood.
He is listed in the British Jewry Book of Honour but without a photo.
A look up of anything you have on him would be much appreciated.
Andyp

Hello Andyp,

I'll assume you have the CWGC and SDITGW entries for him.

Lewis Silverstein appears to have been part of a batch of around 30 men from the 9th Londons who transferred to the 23rd in May 1916. The war diary for May 1916 mentions a draft of 32 men arriving on the 28th, with another draft of 24 men appearing on the 30th, so by the end of the month I would imagine he was with the battalion. This was the beginning of the strengthening of the battalion prior to their involvement on the Somme.

I'm not sure whether these drafts were kept together in one platoon or spread out over the companies, but this small contingent of former 9th Londoners appears not to have faired very well with Silverstein and 9 of his colleagues being killed in action on 15/16th September (and no doubt quite a few others being wounded). The battalion lost over 565 O/Rs from the 15th to 19th September, so their rate of casualties was probably in line with the battalion overall.

His parents Oscar and Sarah, both born in Germany, were living in 1901 at 22 Lullington Rd, Penge, Surrey- Oscar was a clerk (possibly for a refreshment contractor?). Lewis (listed as Louis B. Silverstein) was a 3 year old staying at 98 Rutland St., Mile End the night of the census. He is listed as being the cousin of Emanuel Cohen, a Polish Tailor.

I'd be interested in hearing what the Jewry Book mentions for him- it's one of the many gaps in my library.

Hope this is of some help,
Best regards,
Matthew

thanks Matthew
my email is ..

Debbie,

Let me know if you haven't received my email.

Matthew

[andyp]

Many thanks Matthew; really good stuff.
I'm afraid the BJBH really covers the same ground as CWGC.
In return let me add one piece of data to your records - before the war he worked as a member of the New Scotland Yard civilian staff (in 1914 there were just 66 of them) -  probably as a clerk and he appears on the Roll of Honour inside the main entrance. I saw the book open to his name just a few days ago.
Andy

[Tom Thorpe]

Hi there,
I have just check my database of the 13th Londons and I have quite a few 23rd Londons moving in and out. Shall try and dig up what I can and send them through.

It may be worth looking at the National Roll of Honour which was  published after the war, I picked up around 50 biographies of men in the various Rolls that cover London.

Also, look at all the medal rolls for the London Regt as I found a number of 13th men in other battalions, especially in the 56th Div.

Finally, contact Charles Fair (on the Forum) who has being doing work on the 19th Londons.

Hope this helps.

T

[stiletto_33853]

Matthew,
If this is of use to you let me know and I will e-mail the full size bit from the local newspaper on this gentleman, Private Seebold 1/23rd London Regiment.

Andy

Attached Files

•  Seebold.JPG   98.13K   1 downloads

[Peter Beckett]

I am now researching L/CPL George Frederick Murkin, 704020, 23rd Battalion,London Regiment, KIA, 3 Oct 1918, who I found out today was a relative.
Does anyone have a copy of the battalion diaries for the month of October 1918?
Any help very much appreciated

Peter

[droberts]

Hi,

I Have a thread below on cap badges in a picture.  The man on the left is Robert Meirion Roberts,  I have it that he served with the 23rd Londons in France Salonika and Pallestine.  Maybe you could have a look at the picture and tell me if the cap badge fits.

Thanks

Dave Roberts

[westkent78]

Hi there,
I have just check my database of the 13th Londons and I have quite a few 23rd Londons moving in and out. Shall try and dig up what I can and send them through.
Hope this helps.

T

Tom,
Thanks for having a look. Some good advice there. Be interested to see what you unearth.

I've found a number in the National Roll as well, but I've generally held off searching through them until I have the main database formed- good information included in there though when you find one of 'your' men.

Charles is already on the case, and hopefully we'll be collaborating on some 142nd Bde information.

Best regards,
Matthew

[westkent78]

Matthew,
If this is of use to you let me know and I will e-mail the full size bit from the local newspaper on this gentleman, Private Seebold 1/23rd London Regiment.

Andy

Andy,

Yes please. I'll email you as I have some requests regarding the 23rd Londons and Rifle Bde.

Best regards,
Matthew

[westkent78]

I am now researching L/CPL George Frederick Murkin, 704020, 23rd Battalion,London Regiment, KIA, 3 Oct 1918, who I found out today was a relative.
Peter

Peter,

I'll get back to you when I get home. Murkin is one of those men who on the face of it could be either 1/23rd or 2/23rd as they were both in F&F in Oct 1918. Have to do a bit more digging.

Best regards,
Matthew