142 replies to this topic

[FitzroyPC]

... and another two:
 Armoured Car - Lancia (BT 03-04-1922) GWF.jpg   30.09K   0 downloads
 Armoured Car (BT 04-02-1920) GWF.jpg   34.91K   0 downloads

[FitzroyPC]

... and the another two:
 Armoured Car (BT 27-12-1920) 1 GWF.jpg   37.94K   0 downloads
 Armoured Car (BT 27-12-1920) 2 GWF.jpg   36.02K   0 downloads

PM me if you want the full resolution versions.

Nigel

[ARMAGH]

[quote name='FitzroyPC' timestamp='1327167841' post='1698499']
Some more offerings from the Belfast Telegraph (1921)





Nigel

Not tanks, but might be of interest:



Nigel

PM me if you want full resolution copies.



Very interesting Nigel,Which Regiment are the Auxiliaries in? What headress are they wearing?
Many Thanks
Joe

[FitzroyPC]

Joe

It is difficult to tell, I think the focus of the picture is on the vehicles rather than the men.

However, two of the men standing on the front vehicle seem to be wearing headress of a scottish regiment whilst the man with the rifle near the front of the vehicle seem to be wearing headress with a hackle ... could be Royal Irish but could also be Royal Fusiliers.

I have emailed the image to you.

Nigel

[woodfield]

Nigel,

Apologies ofr not replying. I was out of circulation for awhile. Will drop you a pm.



Thanks,

Donal

FitzroyPC, on 16 January 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Donal,

If you want the full-resolution image, drop me a PM ... already given a copy to museumtom!

Nigel

[FitzroyPC]

Donal

I now have pictures of 12 "armoured vehicles" from the Belfast Telegraph, 1911-1922.

Nigel

[ARMAGH]

FitzroyPC, on 11 March 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

Joe

It is difficult to tell, I think the focus of the picture is on the vehicles rather than the men.

However, two of the men standing on the front vehicle seem to be wearing headress of a scottish regiment whilst the man with the rifle near the front of the vehicle seem to be wearing headress with a hackle ... could be Royal Irish but could also be Royal Fusiliers.

I have emailed the image to you.

Nigel

Thanks Nigel
The Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary (ADRIC), generally known as the Auxiliaries or Auxies, was a paramilitary organization within the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) during the Irish War of Independence.
They wore either RIC uniforms or their old army uniforms with appropriate police badges, along with distinctive Tam-o-shanter caps

[FitzroyPC]

... so their uniforms could be a mixture of Black (RIC) and Tan (Army)

[val brown]

This is the full glass plate mage of the newspaper scan in post 125.  The info with the photo is Henry street Dublin 5/7/1922 Nelsol's pillar is in the backround.  The name of the Rolls is "Custom house".  The Puppet with the noose around it, refers to "Rory O Connor" one of the IRA leaders who had just been captured.

The other image is I belive the same car thats in this image, photo looks to be the same location.

Attached Files

•  $(KGrHqEOKpYE3uCJ6C9wBOCM5SMCqQ~~0_12.jpg   14.57K   2 downloads
•  hog134.jpg   47.01K   3 downloads

[gaelgoir]

The bottom photo is definitely in Henry street Dublin with the GPO to the right and Nelson's Pillar ahead.  However there are no blank windows like those in the top photo and i suspect that photo is taken at some barracks.   I expect that the scene has changed over the years but I cannot match the locatiions in my mind.

[gaelgoir]

Rory O'Connor was captured at The Four Courts during the Civil war. That implies that the photo is taken between 28 June and 5 July 1922 during the fighting in O'Connell street after the Four Courts was blown up and the Irregulars captured.   The Troops would be Free State Troops (pro Treaty Forces)

[gaelgoir]

This may be helpful to this section of the forum, It gives what appears to be a complete listing of armoured vehicles at the time.   It also shows the distribution  with a considerable force in Dublin which would not have been for training - the main training would have been in Curragh.   The southern area does not seem to be coveredmaybe that was a different division  because there is no description of forces in the Cork Limerick Tipperary Waterford areas where there were many barracks and posts.


Hearts & Mines by William Sheehan lists the distribution of troops in the 5th divisional area on 1011-1919


HQ Curragh
17th (AC) Tank bn with
8 heavy tanks
6 mediun A whippets
4 medium B whippets
18 armoured cars  (2 tank corps and 16 MGC)

Ulster brigade area
5 armoured cars (MGC)

Dublin Brigade
11th reserve bn MGC
17th (AC) tank bat HQ Marlborough Barracks  
4 Heavy tanks Marlborough Barracks  
4 heavy tanks Marlborough Barracks   reason for repetition not clear if these were additional
2 medium A whippets Marlborough Barracks  
2 medium A whippets Ship st barracks
2 medium A whippets Marlborough Barracks   reason for repetition not clear if these were additional
4 mediun D whippets Marlborough Barracks
2 armoured cars  (TC)
4 Armoured cars MGC  ship street barracks
1 armoured car vice regal lodge

Curragh brigade

command armoured car company  HQ and two armoured cars Curragh
HQ and two armoured cars Detachment Mullingar
HQ and two armoured cars Detachment  Maryborough

[Sidearm]

Thanks for posting this list.  It's the first I've heard of Medium D tanks In Ireland.

Gwyn

[mhifle]

Hi,
  I just found this at the NA from a Cabinet Review on Ireland 7 Dec 1920

Regards Mark

SECRET.
C P 2256.
9
THE CABINET.

MECHANICAL TRANSPORT, ARMOURED CARS AND OTHER
FORMS OF PROTECTION FOR TROOPS IN IRELAND.
MEMORANDUM BY THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR.

I circulate herewith a memorandum showing what has been and is being done to
meet the Irish situation.

W. S. C.
THE WAR OFFICE,
7 th December, 1920.

A.—MECHANICAL TRANSPORT.
1. The following table shows the military mechanical transport in Ireland on the
31st March, 1920, and the subsequent increases which have been made.
The policy which has been followed is that demands from the General Officer
Commanding-in-Chief, Ireland, are met with the utmost possible speed.
As will be seen, already since the 31st March, 1920, the mechanical transport in
Ireland has been more than doubled, and in fact additional transport over and above
the demands of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, has, at the suggestion of the
War Office, been provided :—

Military Mechanical Transport in Ireland on 31st March, 1920, and shipped
there or in process of being shipped since that date.

Lorries: Cars: Vans: Ambulance: Motor cycles (solos and side cars):

(i.) In Ireland on 31st March, 1920- 156: 46: 290: 62: 332:

(ii.) Shipped to Ireland from 1st April, to 31st October, 1920- 319: 64: 379: 42: 331:

(iii.) Further increases—

(a.) Completed by 8th December, 1920- 39: 11: 68: 19: 87:

(b.)To be completed by 2nd January, 1921- 65: *: *: 75: 10: 80:

(c.) To be completed by l5th January, 1921- 24: 18: 82: *: *:

B.—ARMOURED CARS.
2. There were 41 armoured lorries in Ireland on the 31st March, 1920. Some of
these are now past repair, but roughly 25 are running. Since then 48 armoured cars
(Peerless) have been sent. A further six are being sent on the 8th December, while
six of the new Rolls-Royce armoured cars due from factory next week will be
despatched on receipt. 16 more Peerless armoured lorries (from the 32 retained in
England for emergencies) are being sent in the course of December, and 26 new Rolls-
Royce armoured cars as delivery can be obtained. A further 16 Peerless will be
despatched later if situation in Great Britain permits.
3. Experiments in armouring Ford cars have shown their unsuitability for military
purposes. It is not yet known if the Royal Irish Constabulary will accept this type—
the experiments were carried out for the Royal Irish Constabulary as well as for
the Army.
4. Since the 31st March, 4,000 shipping tons of spare parts for military
mechanical transport have been shipped to Ireland.
Small outstanding demands exist for certain makes, which there is difficulty in
obtaining in sufficient quantities from the manufacturers. Deliveries are already
improving and all outstanding’s will be satisfied by the end of this month.

C-PERSONNEL.
5. One of the greatest difficulties in Ireland has been driver and more particularly
artificer personnel.
(a.) Drivers.—In January, 1920, the Army was seriously short of mechanical
transport drivers.
The deficiency was due to demobilization and dearth of recruits owing to the high
rates earned in civilian life.
Some idea of the difficulties will be realized from the following figures.
Since January, 1920, various theatres have absorbed 3,448 newly enlisted drivers,
of which Ireland has had 1,097. Since March, 1920, 9,449 experienced drivers, whose
time had expired, have been demobilized.
As regards Ireland the problem is being met—
(i.) By increasing our training facilities for output of drivers,
(ii.) By the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Ireland, enlisting ex-soldiers as
drivers on 6 months' engagements.
(6.) Artificers.—The shortage of artificers in the Army in January, 1920, was
even greater than the shortage of drivers.
This shortage was due partly to the necessity for demobilizing time-expired
personnel—2,252 artificers have been demobilized since March, 1920—and partly to
Army rates for artificers being so far below civilian rates that recruiting has been almost
at a standstill.
At the same time, 400 artificers have been sent to various theatres, of which 116
have gone to Ireland.
The shortage of military artificers in Ireland is being made good by the employ
ment of civilian artificers, engaged in England, to the number of 415 (at rates which
are approximately double Army rates). Of this number some 180 have already reached
Ireland, while the balance will be despatched by,17th December, 1920. All these
artificers pass a test before being sent.

D.—PEOTECTION FOR TROOPS.
6. (a.) Steel plates for lorries.—160 sets were asked for by Ireland on the
18th August, 1920.
Forty sets have been adapted in Woolwich Arsenal and despatched, and the remaining
120 sets are being sent at the rate of 30 a week and will be completed by the
8 th January.
(&.) Protective material proof against revolver bullets for lorries and cars.—
The War Office suggested to Ireland the provision of protective material for troops
and the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in Ireland agreed with this proposal.
66 sets for lorry bodies, 121 sets for lorry canopies, and 20 protective cushions for cars
have already been despatched to Ireland. 30 sets a week each for lorry bodies and lorry
canopies respectively are being sent, up to a total supply of 500 complete sets and
100 car cushions.
The above supply depends upon manufacturers keeping their promises as to
delivery.

GENERAL.
7. It must be remembered that the coal strike and industrial disturbance consequent
upon the strike has interfered with manufacture, and that during the last six months
the requirements in other theatres, and particularly in Mesopotamia, have had to
be met.

[vintary]

A couple of Dublin 1920s tank photos just been posted on this site, one of which I have not seen before

( Image 1 post 15 )

http://www.boards.ie...hp?t=2056712439

[gaelgoir]

I found this section in a witness statement to the Bureau of military history in Ireland,  it describes a visit by an officer to Dublin corporation engineering office about deployment of tanks in Dublin during the Conscription crisis of 1917.

" a British military officer, a major i think asked to see the engineer in charge of the city streets He was shown into O'Connor's office (Rory O'Connor executed for his part in the occupation of the Four courts during the civil war and an active Republican"  he wished to discussa matter of the greatest confidence. ............H esaid there would eb extensive street fighting in Dublin if conscription were enforced and that they would mainly use tanks some of them of  aheavy type in such fighting.  He wanted O'Connor to give him a list of streets which would be unsafe for the heaviest tanks , on account of sewers and other underground works. O'Connor told him there were many such streets ......it would help to know  teh weights and load distribution......general discussion on street fighting   '..... there was aseconsd meeting a week later."

[gaelgoir]

_{8 May 1920  Newspaper records that 37,000 troops and 40 Tanks are in Ireland but four tanks are notified tot eh disposal board for disposal}

[Connaught Stranger]

With regards the picture: "Rory Boy" a cropped version of this appears in the book:-

"Irish Army Vehicles" by Karl Martin, (ISBN 0-9543413-0-9)

with the caption:-

Quote

Below: Rolls-Royce armoured car "Custom House" beside a Leyland lorry in Henery St. on the 5th of July 1922, the day after the heavy fighting in O'Connell Street. Nelson's Pillar is in the background. The puppet, "Rory Boy", above the .303 Vickers machine gun (MG) has a noose around its neck and represents Rory O'Connor, a leader of the Irregulars who was later executed in retaliation for the murder of Sean Hales T.D. outside of Leinster House in December. (Photo: Courtesy of the National Library of Ireland. National Library of Ireland Hogan/Lennon Collection no. B70.)