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#1 Anzac16

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 09:04 PM

I have got a big lot of some Cap Badges.

But i am not sure about if they are original WW1
Oke i know its hard to tell because they used the during WW2 aswell.
But maybe some one can tell more about them.

I have found out form what regiment they are but not sure.
Thankx already.


1- Sutherland and Caithness Batt (5th Seaforth Highlanders).
2- The Queen's own Cameron Highlanders.
3- The Gordon Highlanders.
4- Seaforth Highlanders.
5- The Cameronians (Scottisch rifles).
6- The Royal Scots.
7- The Queen's Edingurgh rigles (4th and 5th Royal Schotts).
8- The Northhamptonshire Yeomanry.
9- Machine gun corps.
10- 19th (St Pancras)
11- 1st (King's) Dragoon Guards.
12- Dorsetshire Regiment.
13- Royal Fuseliers (City of London Regiment).
14- The Essex Regiment.
15- 16th (Queen's Westminster).
16- Westminster Dragoons |(2nd country of London Yeomanery)
17- Canada.
18- Duke of Cronwell Light infantry.
19- 20th Hussars.
20- 19th Royal Hussars.
21- Worcertershire Hussars.
22- Royal Munster Fuseliers.
23- Sherwood foresters (Notts and Derbyshire Regiment).
24- 18th (country of London) The London Regiment ((london Irish Rifles)
25- The Hertfordshire Regiment.
26- 6th Dragoons Inniskillings.
27- 25th (Country of London) Ciycelist The London Regiment.
28- The Wiltshire Regiment.
29- Grenadier Guards.
30- 12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales's).
31- 9th (Queen Victoria Rifles).
32- Houshold Batalion Houshold Cavalry.
33- The king's own (Royal Lancaster Regiment).
34- Duke of Wellington Regiment (Westreding).
35- 2th Dragoon Guards (Queen's Bays).
36- 9th Queen's royal Lancers.
37- Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of Weles's).
38- Lothian and Border Horse.
39- 17th Lancers.
40- Gloucestershire Regiment.
41- South Staffordshire Regiment.
42- Young Citizens Batt (14th royal Irish Rifles).
43- Warwickshire Yeomanry.
44- King Edward's Horse.
45- Duke of Lancaster's own Yeomanry.
46- Berkshire Yeomanry.
47- Australian and commonwealth Military Forces.
48- Australian and commonwealth Military Forces.
49- Easy Surrey Regiment.
50- 7th Dragoon guards
51- Imperial Service
52- Guards Machine gun Regiment.
53- Coldstream guards.
54- 1st King's Dragoon guards.


54 looks to me that that one is not origional.
And din't found any thing about number 51.

#2 HERITAGE PLUS

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 09:10 PM

Anzac

No: 51 is The Territorial Force Imperial Service Badge which was awarded to to those members of the Territorial Force who were prepared to serve outside the United Kingdom in defence of the Empire. It was worn on the breast,

Dave

#3 Anzac16

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE (HERITAGE PLUS @ Dec 19 2007, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anzac

No: 51 is The Territorial Force Imperial Service Badge which was awarded to to those members of the Territorial Force who were prepared to serve outside the United Kingdom in defence of the Empire. It was worn on the breast,

Dave

Could you say if it was in use in WW1 aswell?

#4 Greg

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 09:15 PM

The Imperial Service badge is not a cap badge. It was worn on the chest by a soldier signed up for service only within the UK who volunteered for 'Imperial Service ' overseas.
Regards
Greg

#5 DrB

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 09:36 PM

ANZAC 16....and what exact color is kakhi or olive drab? Answer is unanswerable.
Depends a whole lot on the provenance as to real or wannabe. Also, too many to research to pronounce WWI or WWII although some are very apparent. Other units changed pattern. Crown won't help as both wars saw the KC generally worn unless some old sweat had a VC crown to flaunt.
Good luck...nice collection anyway, true or false.
DrB
wink.gif


#6 Anzac16

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 10:17 PM

Thankx

I know its hard to tell if a capbadge is WW! or WW2 mellow.gif

#7 Bootnecks

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:28 AM

Anzac... on your first board, you show badge: 38... upside down!

Seph

#8 max7474

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 08:55 AM

Unfortunately I can tell you just by looking at the following ones that they are 99% repro:

Numbers 1,7,8,11,15,16,21, 22,24,26,30,31,42,44,46,50,52. They all have some design characteristic that are seen on the copies that differ from the originals. In addition 54 is a collar. Others I personnally would be very suspicious of for example the the Machine Gun Corps, Gren guards and the 17th lancers are usually found on a slider. In the case of the 17/21 lancers badge, then modern ones are bought by QRL soldiers to replace their anodised issued ones and they can have lugs. Not likely to be WW1 though.

The remainder are somewhat questionable but it is difficult to be sure from a picture. Some of them appear to have been artificially aged and the liberal use of brasso residue is all to often often seen on fakes. Genuine badges would not have been left 'pasted' in brasso as it defeats the point of applying a cleaning agent. The fact that so many of the backs of Scottish badges for example have been covered with brasso makes it look very suspicious. The King Edwards Horse badge is properly covered in it but it is a 100% fake as the regt never wore this badge in white metal but only in gilding metal, on a slider and with more voids. Kipling and Kings book cites this w/m badge as an example of a well known fake. This alone suggests that the rest have also been doctored with brasso.

There is nothing about their construction that leaps out as a 100% genuine badge. Some of them could be but the fakes are so good then it is all a balance of probability.

Sorry to be so negative but that is my opinion on them. Cap badges have been widely faked and there is considerable difficulty in recognising the copies.

Alan

#9 Anzac16

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 09:22 AM

Yeah its hard to tell.
The ones you name i found out that they are Doubtful to but if you look close they look oke.
But you never can be sure.

But i got this lot in all and i going to see which is some what oke and which not.
The rest i will sell i think.

But to get the the complete lot for 5 euro the piece is i think an nice price wink.gif

But do you have examples of the origional ones?

#10 max7474

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 09:40 AM

I do have examples of most of the British ones. Which ones in particular would you like to see?

Alan

#11 Anzac16

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 09:45 AM

QUOTE (max7474 @ Dec 20 2007, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I do have examples of most of the British ones. Which ones in particular would you like to see?

Alan

Well form the ones your sure that they are fake.

#12 max7474

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 10:06 AM

If you go the milcol.net and search through British badges forum then the majority of the badges have been covered in discussions there. I have posted pictures of genuine ones of the rarer ones myself there and others have contributed.

From what you say I suspect someone has collected all their fake badges together , aged them, covered them in brasso and sold them off in one lot. It is very difficult to judge the one piece badges such as the Glosters but the fact that it too has been brassoed makes me think that it would not stand up to close examination and I would sell them all off as restrikes. There could be one or 2 genuines in there such as the Dorsetshires which looks to have the correct brasing holes.

The 19th Hussras should have a hairpin like slider which bends back on itself. This stengthened the neck of the 'A' and stopped it breaking. Does it have that type or a normal slider that is fixed at one end?

Alan

#13 Anzac16

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 10:11 AM

Yes it has a hair pin like bent

#14 max7474

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 11:17 AM

From the picture below it shows the normal slider - the originals were bent back on themselves and cut to fit the neck of the badge.

Alan

#15 Anzac16

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 11:32 AM

But if you like i can make more close ups if you like.

#16 Peter Doyle

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:11 PM

An interesting debate here! Faking is a high art these days, and from the examples illustrated, it seems that the individual has really gone to town with the brasso! Another issue to look out for is the bending or breaking of the slider with pliers, leaving a characteristic cut mark. Many of those illustrated have been heavily treated; surprisingly, some well-provenanced examples I have look tarnished but otherwise in good condition. So, it's a lottery really.

The Imperial Service Badge was only issued in WW1 and although often seen in later war photos, it was granted in teh early war period.

Cheers
Peter


#17 max7474

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:30 PM

The copies are very good and you really need a lot of experince to spot them. To start with the first badge; this is a genuine one. Compare it to the copy and you see that there are 3 'give-aways'. Firstly the copies chest is narrower, the whiskers ill defined and the foot is a smear compared to the well defined claws on the genuine one. The striking is poorer on the back of the copy probably due to so many copies being made that the die is now worn.

It also helps that I recognise the copy as the type sold by a well known ebay seller of 'original' badges who actually deals in repros. I have owned examples of both and when they are side by side the fake is just obvious.

Alan

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#18 Anzac16

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:39 PM

Oke made some close ups from the ons you where telling that where fake.



#19 Anzac16

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:45 PM

Here are some.





#20 Anzac16

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:48 PM

Here are some other ones





#21 Anzac16

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:50 PM




#22 Anzac16

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:58 PM

For the rest klick on these links

http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0921.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0922.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0923.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0924.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0925.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0926.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0927.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0928.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0929.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0930.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0931.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0935.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0933.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0932.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0936.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0937.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0938.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0939.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0940.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0941.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0942.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0943.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0944.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0945.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0946.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0947.JPG
http://www.greatwarc...es/IMG_0948.JPG

#23 max7474

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:01 PM

OK, in my opinion they are fakes becasue of the following points:

1. 14 Bn RIR is a common copy and the JRGaunt.London mark is a well known fake mark. The originals have minor differnces in the shape of the clover and the veins on th eleaves and do not have that mark on the slider. A common fake on ebay.

2. The Northhants Yeomanry is another very common fake of a scarce WW2 badge. The originals had voided forelegs and the badge was deeper - the horse actually stands out proud from the rest of the badge where as the copies are flatter. Wilkinson's book shows an example with a slider. This was a single Yeomanry regt in WW2 with only a few hundred members but there are half a dozen of these badges on ebay at one time.

3. Worcestershire Hussars - a very commom copy. I would expect brasing holes behind the overlaid pear leaf on the badge for the badge to be lugged. If it had a slider then I would expect a strenthener behind the crown of the badge. Another common copy.

4. KEH. As mentioned earlier this was never issued in white metal only in brass and that badge had more voids. I show a genuine one with a slider.

Alan

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#24 max7474

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:05 PM

This is Sean Cronin's badges from the British badge Forum site which shows what I would want to see in a WH badge. He has some excellent yeomanry badges.

Alan

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#25 max7474

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:10 PM

In order not to take up any more server space may I suggest you go to:

http://www.milcol.ne...amp;hl=dragoons

for a long discussion on the 6 Inniskilling badge. (Membership is free)

the KDG badges are discussed at:

http://www.milcol.ne...?showtopic=6513



From there you can look up many of the others.

Alan