18 replies to this topic

[John Duncan]

This is a real long shot can any Kiwi pals assist, my G G Uncle Robert Duncan lived in Brunner, South Island and was killed in the mining disaster of 1896 aged 41. He was married and apparently his family stayed on , family history (sketchy) indicates that he had a son (possibly Robert Jnr although not confirmed)who served in the Great War.

Unfortunately that's it information wise ,can anyone shed any light on the subject please. I have tried the NZ cenotaph database and can't find any matches, all the Roberts had living fathers, I would be grateful as always if anyone can assist.

John

[AllieT]

Looking at the nominal roll, there are the following men named Robert Duncan (splitting them into South Island and North Island for you)

South Island
Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address C/- Mrs Seed Southbrook Rangiora
Occupation Farm Labourer
Recruiting District North Canterbury

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address Loburn
Recruiting District North Canterbury

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address 38 Burke St Sydenham
Occupation Farrier
Recruiting District Christchurch

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address Hampden
Occupation Farmer
Recruiting District North Otago

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address C/- D Ross Palmerston
Occupation Shepherd
Recruiting District North Otago

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2
Regimental Number 24987
Rank Bombardier
Next of Kin Title R
Next of Kin Surname DUNCAN
Next of Kin Relationship Father
Next of Kin Address Menzies Ferry Southland
Roll 37
Page 26
Occupation Bank Clerk

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address 24 Greenock St Dunedin
Occupation Mill Hand
Classification C

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address Blackball
Occupation Miner
Classification C

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address 36 Bath St Christchurch
Occupation Telegraph-lineman
Classification C

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address St Kilda
Occupation Painter
Classification F

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert Harold
Category Nominal Rolls Vol 4
Regimental Number 72099
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title P
Next of Kin Surname DUNCAN
Next of Kin Relationship Father
Next of Kin Address 38 Richardson Street Opawa Christchurch
Roll 86
Page 19
Occupation Bank Clerk

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert Shand
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address Oturehua Maniototo
Occupation Labourer
Recruiting District North Otago

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert William
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address Nightcaps
Occupation Labourer
Recruiting District Southland


North Island
Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address Matarawa
Occupation Farmer
Recruiting District Wairarapa

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address 17 Maarama Crescent
Occupation Cashier
Recruiting District Wellington

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2
Regimental Number 17282
Rank Gunner
Next of Kin Title R
Next of Kin Surname DUNCAN
Next of Kin Relationship Father
Next of Kin Address 17 Maarama Crescent Wellington
Roll 41
Page 22
Occupation Clerk


Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address 9 Knigges Avenue
Occupation Bootmaker
Recruiting District Wellington

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address Eureka
Occupation Farmer
Recruiting District Waikato

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert Dalzell
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2
Regimental Number 10796
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title A
Next of Kin Surname DUNCAN
Next of Kin Relationship Father
Next of Kin Address New Zealand Railways Auckland
Roll 31
Page 5
Occupation Ironmonger

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert Wishart
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address 156 Grafton Rd Auckland
Occupation Pastrycook
Classification A

West Island  (Yeah, yeah, Australia )
Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert Wishart
Category Nominal Rolls Vol 4
Regimental Number 81744
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title Mrs G
Next of Kin Surname DUNCAN
Next of Kin Relationship Wife
Next of Kin Address 38 Blue Street Sydney NSW Australia
Roll 87
Page 13
Occupation Motor-mechanic

As well as that, there are a few with Robert as a middle name.  However, all three of these are from the North Island.

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Charles Robert
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address Whangamarino
Occupation Farmer
Classification E

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Charles Robert Herbert
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address Paeroa Thames
Occupation Clergyman
Classification C

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name John Robert
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3
Regimental Number 59194
Rank Rifleman
Next of Kin Title Mrs E
Next of Kin Surname DUNCAN
Next of Kin Relationship Mother
Next of Kin Address 8 Roebuck Road Gisborne
Roll 72
Page 28
Occupation Drover

Allie

[AllieT]

John, do you happen to know the wife's name?  First?  Maiden?

Robert Duncan married Ellen Mitchell 1887
Robert Duncan married Mary Elizabeth Eleanor Walden 1894
Rober Duncan married Norah Dennehy 1895


Allie

[christine liava'a]

[quote name='John Duncan' date='Feb 7 2008, 06:56 PM' post='855783']
This is a real long shot can any Kiwi pals assist, my G G Uncle Robert Duncan lived in Brunner, South Island and was killed in the mining disaster of 1896 aged 41. He was married and apparently his family stayed on , family history (sketchy) indicates that he had a son (possibly Robert Jnr although not confirmed)who served in the Great War.

.........................
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~o...nerDisaster.htm

List of the Entombed Men.
Wanganui Herald, Volume XXX, Issue 8811, 27 March 1896, Page 3

List of the Entombed Men.

The following is a full list of those at work in the mine yesterday morning when the explosion took place -.—' M Brisbane, J Roberts, Mark Master, Robert Pascoe, Humphrey Smith, Thomas Clare, Joseph Mclvor, W. Liddell, (married), Harry Dettert, John Langdon, Ed. Kent, Jos. Baxter, James Richards, Geoffrey Geogehan, James Geogehan, Robert Duncan, James Worthley, John Tuart, Edward Collins, G Beaman, W. McLuskie, Rob, McLuskie, T. Moore sen., T. Moore jnnr., M Hunter (married) Henry Denniston, James Scott, Charles James, Paul Peillon. W McMinn, John White, G. Baxter, W. Boyd, A. Williams, James Rowe, John Dunn, D. Hooley (married), Robert McMahon, John W. Roberts, John Waterman, John Patterson, Josiah Masters, Thomas Heslin, William Henderson, R. W. Kear, T. Mclvor, J. McDonald, Richard O'Loughlan, Joseph Scoble junr., B Pascoa junr., David Roberts, W. McKinnon, P. Franklin, Wm Cunliffe,! Patrick McDonald, Benjamin Hill, Henry Julian, Charles Baxter, David Anderson, David Hall, John Parsons and Samuel Roberts.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~s...runner1896.html

[AllieT]

That's great, Christine.  Interesting that Robert Duncan is not listed as being married...

Allie

[christine liava'a]

This is likely to be him in 1893. Dobson is the nearest town to the mine.
Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Robert
Number 924
Electorate Grey
Voting Qualification Residential
Residential Address Dobson
Occupation Miner

and his wife
Surname DUNCAN
Given Name Jessie
Number 923
Electorate Grey
Voting Qualification Residential
Residential Address Dobson
Occupation Domestic

[christine liava'a]

Could he have married in Britain?

[christine liava'a]

newspaper report of disaster
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/p...t+Duncan%22-all

[John Duncan]

Allie / Christine thanks very much for your assistance , greatly appreciated.

I think that he did marry in Scotland before moving to NZ , I have traced a marriage certificate dated 1879 where a Robert Duncan marries a Jessie Samuel, I would think that the 1893 Robert Duncan from Dobson could be him, the Duncans come form generation upon generation of miner and knew little else. I see that Dobson is in close proximity to Brunner, I can't find any trace of kids before they left so any children they had would be New Zealand born. Unfortunately Duncan is a particulary common name in my neck the woods , and apparently so in NZ as well. Is there a census I could check that would reveal any lads of service age for WW1 at all . I noticed the lad fron Blackball, who is a miner as well but it's a fair bit from Brunner/ Dobson I think.

John

[zacknz]

John

Tragically for all researchers, New Zealand doesn’t keep detailed census records.  Very sad really!!  All such information has been destroyed – the only exception was that in the very last census, people could elect to retain their personal information – probably releasable in 100 years time. And the personal military file may not record the fact that a father or mother is deceased.  Sometimes you get such information on the file but it's rare in my experience.  On the other hand you could be lucky!

Zack

[christine liava'a]

John, this site might be your best chance of finding any children
http://www.history-house.co.nz/index.htm

If you contact them, they could look at local resources which we do not have access to.
                                                            Good luck,
                                                                   Christine

[christine liava'a]

John, I checked our cemetery records and electoral rolls for the area (We don't have records of censuses).
Jessie Duncan, widow, remained living in Dobson until at least 1910- I did not have time to go further.
There were no other Duncans living in Dobson from 1893 until 1910, so it looks as if they had no children at all,unless they were infants when Dad died,  since both sons and daughters aged 21 or over living with her would have shown up in that period.

I could not find Jessie in any of the local cemeteries, which are Stillwater and Karoro (Greymouth), at all.
Robert is buried in the mass grave at Stillwater, with his name on the memorial.
attached- photo of the Stillwater mass grave before filling it in.

Attached Files

•  IMG0075.jpg   11.42K   1 downloads

[John Duncan]

Zak, Christine thanks again for your help, I woke up  this morning to find this in my inbox, what a fantastic response!
Got to dash to work now.

John

"John

Robert Duncan was killed in the Brunner Mine Disaster in 1896 and left a wife and 9 children. Robert and Jessie were married in 1874 at Gorebridge. Jessie remarried William Smith in 1908. The children were:

1878
8-Oct
David

1880
23-Jul
John

1882
9-Jul
Jessie

1884
13-Sep
Jane

1885
14-Dec
Robert

1886
20-Nov
William

1889
16-Dec
James

1895
21-Mar
Louisa

1896
30-Mar
Irene


Compensation was paid for children under the age of 16 at the time of the explosion.

We have photos of ‘Widow Jessie Duncan with 6 of her 9 dependent children 1898-9’ and ‘Three working sons of Jessie Duncan when they could contribute to the family income c1904-5’.


We haven’t been able to find out what happened to Jessie and the family after the second marriage as ‘William Smith’ is a common name!


We have other background information about the disaster we can send you if you can send us an address.


Regards


Margaret Mort

History House Museum"

[AllieT]

That's fabulous information, John!

I wonder if the children were divided up amongst relatives, as 9 children would have been a lot for a widow to support.

Also, I've just done a nominal roll search for surname Duncan, with NOK surname Smith - with no results.  I'll keep looking, though, to see if any of the brothers show up with other NOK listed.

Allie

[christine liava'a]

Here is the marriage
Year 1908
Folio 1635
Surname DUNCAN
Given Names Jessie
Sex F
Spouse SMITH

Year 1908
Folio 1635
Surname SMITH
Given Names William
Sex M
Spouse DUNCAN

I'll have another look at the cemeteries, under Smith!

[AllieT]

No real candidates stand out, but here's a few possibilities... if they didn't move out of the area!

I've already listed all the ones named Robert Duncan

No-one under David Duncan stands out as a possibility.

John Duncan
Surname DUNCAN
Given Name John
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address Millerton via Westport
Occupation Labourer
Classification E

William Duncan
Surname DUNCAN
Given Name William
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address 239 Palmerston St Westport
Occupation Pinman
Classification F

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name William
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address Karamea via Westport
Occupation Labourer
Classification C

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name William James
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address Hall St Hokitika
Occupation Carpenter

James Duncan
Surname DUNCAN
Given Name James
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address Hall St Off Gibsons Quay Hokitika
Occupation Carpenter
Classification F

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name James
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address 16 Peel St Westport
Occupation Mine-worker
Classification A

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name James Clark
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address Greymouth
Occupation Railway Clerk
Classification D

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name James Edward
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 6/3304
Rank Private
Body or Draft Eighth
Unit or Regiment Canterbury Infantry Batln
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address Karamea
Next of Kin Title Mrs J
Next of Kin Surname DUNCAN
Next of Kin Relationship Mother
Next of Kin Address Karamea Westport
(Except you'd think his mother would be Mrs J Smith, if this was one of your chaps)

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name James Stewart
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address Otira
Occupation Miner

who then was called up and became:

Surname DUNCAN
Given Name James Stewart
Category Nominal Rolls Vol 4
Regimental Number 69994
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title J
Next of Kin Surname BEBAN
Next of Kin Relationship Friend
Next of Kin Address Otira Gorge Hotel Otira
Roll 83
Page 6
Occupation Labourer


Allie

[AllieT]

I just noticed... if he died in 1896 aged 41, he was only 19ish when he married.  My goodness they married young back then!  I wonder how old she was?

Does the information you received tell you what work the three eldest sons were doing to help support the family?  Because that could help us narrow down which of the men they may be on the nominal roll.  By the time war broke out, I think you're looking at David and John almost certainly being married what with their DOBs being 1878 and 1880 respectively - hence likely they're on the reserve lists with children.  Also it's likely Robert would have been as well, as he'd have been coming up to his 31st birthday when conscription came in.

James is looking like your best bet for one of the brothers to actually have served - even William (unless he'd moved out of the area of the West Coast) looks to have only been on the reserve list and not actually have been called up or enlisted.


Allie

[christine liava'a]

Those children would have reached voting age (21) in the following years;
David 1899, John 1901, Jessie 1903, Jane 1905, Robert 1906, William 1907, James 1910, Louisa 1916, and Irene 1917,
yet none of them appear in Dobson in the years I looked at.

Irene has the name that is most distinctive, so I looked her up in the marriages, and found

Year 1915
Folio 04644
Surname DUNCAN
Given Names Irene
Sex F
Spouse FURNESS

Year 1915
Folio 04644
Surname FURNESS
Given Names Angus James
Sex M
Spouse DUNCAN

then looked up Angus Furness in the WW1 CD

Surname FURNESS
Given Name Angus James
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address 132 Slater St
Occupation Linotypist
Recruiting District Christchurch

Surname FURNESS
Given Name Angus James
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3
Regimental Number 58232
Rank Corporal
Next of Kin Title Mrs A J
Next of Kin Surname FURNESS
Next of Kin Relationship Wife
Next of Kin Address 22 Leonard Street Greymouth
Roll 76
Page 7
Occupation Linotype Operator,

so, now you have his son-in -law, a soldier in the NZEF
and at least Irene got away from the mine!

The other girls' husbands might well have served too, even if their brothers were too old

[John Duncan]

Thanks to all you good folks that have helped with this, it maybe as suggested that due to their age and occupation that they didn't serve.

I have emailed the museum back and they are going to send me some more details, I'll post them as soon as I get them, interesting for me is the lads names, John, James, David , William and Robert..exactly the same as my Grandads family back here just a brother short, Thomas. It may well be that the lads moved away from the area, hopefully I will find out, even though their dad was killed in the pit I can't see them doing anything else. They certainly didn't come back here that's for sure.

Cheers - John