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Died in Ireland


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#1 chrisharley9

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:03 PM

In this thread it is my intention to list as many as possible of the non commorateds that I can find who died in Ireland

The purpose is to find out

A. the scale of the problem as far as Ireland is concerned

B. to find out if anyone else is researching any of these lads

C. to act as a point of exchange of information into these lads

D. To see if they are already in the process of acceptance



Name
BOR, James Henry (1857-1914), Lieutenant General
Service biography
Joined Royal Military Academy 1874; Cyprus 1878; special service, Bombay, India 1883; Chief Commandant, Cyprus Military Police 1884-1892; Col, Cretan Gendarmerie 1897; Albanian Gendarmerie mutiny, Crete 1897

From the Liddell Hart Centre

The question here was he serving or not at the time of his death?

#2 Joe Walsh

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:15 PM

I'm assuming that the majority of the non-commemorated would of been those killed in the '16 rising and years following?

I know from my own history here that I don't think the British Goverment were too proud of the army's actions during the '16 rising, and martial law turned the Irish Public against the British Goverment, and thus proved to be the success of the Sinn Fein in the 1918 elections. (A very simplified version). So that may of stopped the British Goverment from commemorating those dead soldeirs.

#3 chrisharley9

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:20 PM



From the Times of 19 Nov 1920

We have commemorations for

Name: CHAMBERS, STEWART
Initials: S
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Captain
Regiment/Service: The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Age: 29
Date of Death: 15/11/1920
Additional information: Son of Mrs. Marion Chambers, of 13, Smith Quadrant Cliftonville, Coatbridge, Lanarkshire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: HOLLYBROOK MEMORIAL, SOUTHAMPTON

Name: WATTS, W. SPALDING
Initials: W S
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers
Date of Death: 15/11/1920
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: HOLLYBROOK MEMORIAL, SOUTHAMPTON

Captain Green of the Lincolnshire Regt seems to be missing

Any ideas anyone


#4 chrisharley9

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:23 PM

QUOTE (Joe Walsh @ Apr 22 2008, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm assuming that the majority of the non-commemorated would of been those killed in the '16 rising and years following?

I know from my own history here that I don't think the British Goverment were too proud of the army's actions during the '16 rising, and martial law turned the Irish Public against the British Goverment, and thus proved to be the success of the Sinn Fein in the 1918 elections. (A very simplified version). So that may of stopped the British Goverment from commemorating those dead soldeirs.

Joe

frankly I have no idea why so many British servicemen from this period are non commemorated - I just want to see that they get their due recognition from their nation

Chris

#5 Joe Walsh

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:27 PM

actually, it has just occured to me, could the Captain Green of been a black and tan rather than a member of the British army, and perhaps that is why so many men arent commemorated?

#6 chrisharley9

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:30 PM



From the Times of 21 Dec 1920

Name: RUTHERFORD, DAVID ALFRED
Initials: D A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Royal Garrison Artillery
Unit Text: 115th Siege Bty. 7th Bde.
Age: 22
Date of Death: 01/11/1920
Awards: M C and Bar
Additional information: Son of David Carter Rutherford and Charlotte Ann Rutherford, of Powis Court, Bushey Heath, Herts.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: HOLLYBROOK MEMORIAL, SOUTHAMPTON

This give us Lt S B Brown RGA

Joe

the chaps I will be listing Im pretty sure that they were servicemen - The Auxilaries & the Cadets are not entitled to commemoration by the CWGC

Chris

#7 John Hartley

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:37 PM

Chris

I take it you have a source that confirms that Green died? Otherwise, that might be the simple explanation.

BTW, does the fact that Chambers & Watts are commemorated on Hollybrook indicate that their bodies were not found or that it's just that their places of burial isnt known?

John

#8 chrisharley9

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:49 PM

John

Green will the subject of some more research once the Times Archive comes on line again angry.gif - however Mr Churchill's answer in Parliament makes me think he was abducted at the same time as Watts

I dont really the answer to the 2nd part of your question - but will try to find an answer

Chris

#9 chrisharley9

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:54 PM



From the Times of 23 Oct 1920

Lt Dickson & Pte Reed of the Essex Regt look like they are non commemorated

#10 chrisharley9

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 10:02 PM



Times of 25 Jun 1921

Name: TELFORD, WILLIAM HENRY
Initials: W H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: 10th (Prince of Wales's Own Royal) Hussars
Unit Text: "B" Sqdn.
Age: 19
Date of Death: 24/06/1921
Service No: 534369
Additional information: Son of Mrs. Edith B. Bayes (formerly Telford), of 120, Union St., Middlesbrough, and the late John Telford.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: A. C. 4095.
Cemetery: MIDDLESBROUGH (LINTHORPE) CEMETERY

Name: HARPER
Initials: C H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: 10th (Prince of Wales's Own Royal) Hussars
Age: 24
Date of Death: 24/06/1921
Service No: 537772
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Near South boundary, in South west part.
Cemetery: WALTON (ST. MARY) CHURCHYARD, Suffolk

Sgt Bowson is not commemorated (actually Dowson see below)

Chris

#11 Steve Mattock

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 10:48 PM

Hi Chris

I think this is the man listed as Sgt Bowson

DOWSON, CHARLES
Initials: C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Serjeant
Regiment/Service: 10th (Prince of Wales's Own Royal) Hussars
Age: 28
Date of Death: 24/06/1921
Service No: 534083
Additional information: Son of John Dowson, of Pinder Green, Methley Junction, Yorks.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 37.
Cemetery: METHLEY (ST. OSWALD) CHURCHYARD

Regards

Steve


#12 chrisharley9

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 11:11 PM

Steve

thanks very much for that info

Chris

#13 chrisharley9

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 04:15 PM

QUOTE (John Hartley @ Apr 22 2008, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chris

I take it you have a source that confirms that Green died? Otherwise, that might be the simple explanation.


John

John

looks like 4 staff officers were abducted together - the Times of 17 Nov 1920 states that they were kidnapped on 16 Nov 1920 off the Cork to Bandon train at Waterfall - so Im looking for another name - the CWGC date is either incorrect or the Times got it wrong

This is one of the sad things about this job - its one thing finding a lad who died of his wounds after discharge or who died of disease - but to find some lads who in all probability faced the same fate as some of my own colleauges did some years later I find absolutely heart rending

#14 chrisharley9

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 04:23 PM

Further to the above the Times of 22 Aug 1921 quoting a military enquiry about their missing men confirms that Chamber, Watts & Green were taken together on the 15 Nov 1920 at Waterfall

#15 Piley

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 11:42 PM

I am aware of Capt. S. Chambers, although he is listed as 1st KLR, I have no record of him serving with them in Cork, Officers did move around and from my records it certainly was a busy time with Officers transfering throughout the Empire, if anyone could assist who he was attached to I certainly would be grateful.
I know Lt William Alfred Dixon (not Dickson) was attached to the 1st Essex from the 2nd Suffolks,in 1924 his widow, staying in Folkestone with the family of his brother, Ernest Dixon, a casualty in the Great War, requested that William's name should go on the Dover Town Memorial. This request was turned down, because, although Lieutenant Dixon had served through the Great War, and had died in service, his death was not attributable to the Great War of 1914-18.
The same can also be said of Lt CE Adams 1st Royal Fusiliers who is buried in a private grave and not comemorated on the War Memorial in Sutton-in-Ashfield

Simon




Attached Files



#16 chrisharley9

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 01:54 PM

Simon

thanks for that info - I know that Dixon is being dealt with by Neil Clarke - Reed does not appear on CWGC

Chris

#17 Piley

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE (chrisharley9 @ Apr 24 2008, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Simon

thanks for that info - I know that Dixon is being dealt with by Neil Clarke - Reed does not appear on CWGC

Chris


Chris,

Please find attached work I have done on the Essex Regiment, I have tried do this for as many Regiments as possible, as we both know it will never be complete as even the Regimental Museums admit it being " a black hole" in their Histories

Dvr. Baker RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21
5999515 Cpl W. Brigden Crossbarry 19/3/21
5999394 Pte. S.R. Cawley Crossbarry 19/3/21
5999393 Pte. J. Crafer Crossbarry 19/3/21
Lieut. Dixon 2nd Suffolk (attach. Essex Regiment.) Ballinhassig 22/10/20
M/16554 Pte. W.A. Gray RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21
Capt G.T. Hotblack Wounded Crossbarry D.O.W. 20/3/21
5999062 Pte. J.A. Knight Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21
52203 L. Cpl. T. Maddox Bandon 26/7/20*
5998780 L/Cpl R. Madell Courtmacsherry 14/5/21
Dvr. Martin RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21
5998619 Pte. C.W. Reid Ballinhassig 22/10/20
Lt.Gurth Alwyn Richardson RAF (attached Essex Regiment) Newcestown 10/10/20
Lt R.D.F. Robertson Newcestown 10/10/20
5998780 Pte Francis William Shepherd DOW Bandon 14/5/21
5998205 Pte S.W. Steward Crossbarry 19/3/21
5999140 L/Cpl H.L. Stubbs Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21
5998377 Pte. F. Vince 1/3/21
M21/20487 A/Sgt Watts RASC (attached Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21
Pte Wilkins Crossbarry 19/3/21

Kind regards,

Simon







#18 Piley

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 03:16 PM

QUOTE (Piley @ Apr 24 2008, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chris,

Please find attached work I have done on the Essex Regiment, I have tried do this for as many Regiments as possible, as we both know it will never be complete as even the Regimental Museums admit it being " a black hole" in their Histories

Dvr. Baker RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21
5999515 Cpl W. Brigden Crossbarry 19/3/21
5999394 Pte. S.R. Cawley Crossbarry 19/3/21
5999393 Pte. J. Crafer Crossbarry 19/3/21
Lieut. Dixon 2nd Suffolk (attach. Essex Regiment.) Ballinhassig 22/10/20
M/16554 Pte. W.A. Gray RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21
Capt G.T. Hotblack Wounded Crossbarry D.O.W. 20/3/21
5999062 Pte. J.A. Knight Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21
52203 L. Cpl. T. Maddox Bandon 26/7/20*
5998780 L/Cpl R. Madell Courtmacsherry 14/5/21
Dvr. Martin RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21
5998619 Pte. C.W. Reid Ballinhassig 22/10/20
Lt.Gurth Alwyn Richardson RAF (attached Essex Regiment) Newcestown 10/10/20
Lt R.D.F. Robertson Newcestown 10/10/20
5998780 Pte Francis William Shepherd DOW Bandon 14/5/21
5998205 Pte S.W. Steward Crossbarry 19/3/21
5999140 L/Cpl H.L. Stubbs Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21
5998377 Pte. F. Vince 1/3/21
M21/20487 A/Sgt Watts RASC (attached Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21
Pte Wilkins Crossbarry 19/3/21

Kind regards,

Simon



Chris,
Forgot to add this as I do believe Churchill wanted recognition for the Military Forces (opposed to RIC) as he was perplexed on the stance of no gallantry awards for actions in Ireland, and it was his persistance that lead to OBE/MBE and medals of the OBE being awarded.

On October 10th, Men from Cork No. 3 Brigade, IRA, commanded by Sean Hales, OC Bandon battalion; ambushed Major Percival along with two officers and twelve men from the 1st Battalion Essex Regiment who were traveling in two Crossley tenders near Newcestown Cross, Co Cork. The patrol had just completed a search of the local public house, a suspected IRA ‘haunt’ and had just sent off for a second objective, Castletown, were other searches were planned. The lorries had traveled no more than 400 hundred yards when they came under attack. Three men were wounded by a bomb thrown into the leading car, but the remainder sprang out into the road and drove off the IRA, however two officers were killed (Lt. R.D.F. Robertson and Lt. Richardson, Wireless Officer, RAF) and four others were wounded. The action was fought in pitch darkness; the wounded were recovered by Percival himself. For gallantry shown that night the battalion was congratulated by the Divisional and Brigade Commanders, whilst Major Percival was awarded the OBE and CSM Benton the MBE, Private Wooton was awarded the Medal of the British Empire. These were amongst the first gazetted awards for the Anglo-Irish War 1919-22; it was the Secretary of State, Winston Churchill who stated, “Why because they are shot down by Irish rebels and not by Mesopotamian rebels, should they be excluded from consideration”

Regards,

Simon




#19 chrisharley9

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 03:26 PM

Simon

great info - I concur with Mr Churchill's words in their entirety

Chris



#20 chrisharley9

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 04:26 PM

Dvr. Baker RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21 NON COMMEMORATED
5999515 Cpl W. Brigden Crossbarry 19/3/21 NON COMMEMORATED

5999394 Pte. S.R. Cawley Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC Note Cawley DOW on 20/3/1921
5999393 Pte. J. Crafer Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC
Lieut. Dixon 2nd Suffolk (attach. Essex Regiment.) Ballinhassig 22/10/20 - being dealt with by Neil Clarke
M/16554 Pte. W.A. Gray RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC
Capt G.T. Hotblack Wounded Crossbarry D.O.W. 20/3/21 ON CWGC Date of Death show as 22/03/1921
5999062 Pte. J.A. Knight Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21 ON CWGC
52203 L. Cpl. T. Maddox Bandon 26/7/20* ON CWGC
5998780 L/Cpl R. Madell Courtmacsherry 14/5/21 ON CWGC
Dvr. Martin RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21 NON COMMEMORATED
5998619 Pte. C.W. Reid Ballinhassig 22/10/20 ON CWGC Major Dixon died with him
Lt.Gurth Alwyn Richardson RAF (attached Essex Regiment) Newcestown 10/10/20 ON CWGC
Lt R.D.F. Robertson Newcestown 10/10/20 ON CWGC DOW 12/10/1920
5998780 Pte Francis William Shepherd DOW Bandon 14/5/21 ON CWGC
5998205 Pte S.W. Steward Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC
5999140 L/Cpl H.L. Stubbs Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21 ON CWGC
5998377 Pte. F. Vince 1/3/21 ON CWGC
M21/20487 A/Sgt Watts RASC (attached Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC
Pte Wilkins Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC

Simon

would you like the extracts from the Times with regard to the Crossbarry incident & other extracts relating to these lads

Chris

#21 kildaremark

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 06:29 PM

The Summer 2007 issue of "the Irish Sword" reports an Investiture at the Royal Hospital Kilmainham, Dublin on 12 July 1921 where about 50 Officers and men were awarded the Most Excellent Ordr of the British Empire. It was held by Gen. Macready on behalf of the King.

An example of one is Sgt Frank Poole, MM, Essex Regiment

"Sgt Poole displayed great gallantry in leading a party of young soldiers in an action on 19th March 1921. He also made repeated attempts to bring in a wounded officer lying in an exposed position, under heavy fire."


The material is held under WO 35/181


Mark

#22 chrisharley9

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 06:35 PM

Mark

thanks very much

Chris

#23 Piley

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 07:28 PM

QUOTE (chrisharley9 @ Apr 24 2008, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dvr. Baker RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21 NON COMMEMORATED
5999515 Cpl W. Brigden Crossbarry 19/3/21 NON COMMEMORATED

5999394 Pte. S.R. Cawley Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC Note Cawley DOW on 20/3/1921
5999393 Pte. J. Crafer Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC
Lieut. Dixon 2nd Suffolk (attach. Essex Regiment.) Ballinhassig 22/10/20 - being dealt with by Neil Clarke
M/16554 Pte. W.A. Gray RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC
Capt G.T. Hotblack Wounded Crossbarry D.O.W. 20/3/21 ON CWGC Date of Death show as 22/03/1921
5999062 Pte. J.A. Knight Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21 ON CWGC
52203 L. Cpl. T. Maddox Bandon 26/7/20* ON CWGC
5998780 L/Cpl R. Madell Courtmacsherry 14/5/21 ON CWGC
Dvr. Martin RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21 NON COMMEMORATED
5998619 Pte. C.W. Reid Ballinhassig 22/10/20 ON CWGC Major Dixon died with him
Lt.Gurth Alwyn Richardson RAF (attached Essex Regiment) Newcestown 10/10/20 ON CWGC
Lt R.D.F. Robertson Newcestown 10/10/20 ON CWGC DOW 12/10/1920
5998780 Pte Francis William Shepherd DOW Bandon 14/5/21 ON CWGC
5998205 Pte S.W. Steward Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC
5999140 L/Cpl H.L. Stubbs Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21 ON CWGC
5998377 Pte. F. Vince 1/3/21 ON CWGC
M21/20487 A/Sgt Watts RASC (attached Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC
Pte Wilkins Crossbarry 19/3/21 ON CWGC

Simon

would you like the extracts from the Times with regard to the Crossbarry incident & other extracts relating to these lads

Chris








Chris,

I have most of the "incidents" that were reported in the Times but anything else would be great, in particular I am interested in the action at Upton Station with the 1st KLR and 3rd (West Cork) Brigade, seems little on this (I do have reports from both Crown/Regimental & IRA reports and all three are as far apart as can be.
No KLR were killed but John (Sean) Phelan of the 3rd West Cork Brigade who was killed was actually born in Liverpool.

I have Benton's medals and know the action he was awarded for but I am interested in the presentation as I have another group to the MGC and he was posted the medal, as on one occasion the IRA intercepted (per chance) medals on the way to a presentation and after that awards were posted.

Honours and Awards



OBE
Major Arthur Ernest Percival DSO MC
(Awarded for Newcestown ambush 10 October 1920)
L.G. 18/2/21

MBE
5999002 CSM Harry Benton
(Awarded for Newcestown ambush 10 October 1920)
L.G. 18/2/21

Medal of OBE
5998840 Sgt. F. Poole MM
(Awarded for Crossbarry ambush 19 March 1921)*
L.G. 1/6/21

5999543 Pte Lawrence Wootton
(Awarded for Newcestown ambush 10 October 1920)
L.G. 18/2/21

5998798 Act. Cpl. E.F. Secombe
(Awarded for action against the IRA at a football match at Bandon 14 May 1921)
L.G. 29/7/21


Parchment Certificates
Major A.C. Halahan
Major A.E. Percival
Lieut R.D.F. Robertson MC
2nd Lieut A.F.M. Tower
Lance Corporal J Woodford




*5998840 Sergeant F. Poole, 1st Essex Regiment, citation reads, "Sergeant Poole displayed gallantry in leading a party of young soldiers in action on 19th March, 1921. He also made repeated attempts to bring in a wounded officer lying in an exposed position, under heavy fire".




Regards,

Simon



#24 chrisharley9

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 07:34 PM

Simon

a. can you PM me your e mail address

b. what date was Upton station incident

Chris

#25 chrisharley9

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 09:21 AM

Terry

could I ask you to cast your eyes over the non commemorated on this thread found so far to see if they are under investigation

Chris