71 replies to this topic

[PBI]

Unless I had a connection with the deceased, the family or the regiment, I don't see any reason to attend.

Does that also include Services and Ceremonies held on 11.11.??

[Heid the Ba']

The first point of my concern is that I have not yet received an explanation directly from the CWGC as to why they cannot notify such interments to the public via their web site

*

Their service has been poor, but at least you have an answer, albeit an indirect one.

As I have suggested in earlier postings on this thread, even if the CWGC feel that they have no responsibility

They have no responsibility.  They are a statutory body and as such have duties and obligations which are clearly set out.

to report these events, what is preventing this situation from being changed so that the public are informed.

It would take an act of parliament.  Good luck.

It will be evident from the response from the Rifles Regiment that they were informed by the CWGC of the arrangements so why not the rest of us?

Again, it isn't their job.  And also again, why didn't the Rifles go to the media about it?  

It seems to me that the CWGC are the obvious organisation to devolve any such information as they and not the MOD are inexorably connected with the burial and care of our war dead.

They are the obvious organisation, but it isn't part of their function.  Maybe it should be but it isn't.  Maybe they, not us should be carrying out the "In From The cold" project, but they aren't.  Maybe they should be funding IFTC but they can't.  They are not a perfect organisation but they correct their mistakes and do an excellent job within their remit.

The present situation has lead to confusion with visitors to the two war cemeteries concerned insofar that one thought they were looking at an exhumation and other was surprised to see the new headstone as they were not aware of any recent discoveries of soldiers remains and this in my view this cannot be right.

I suspect very few people were confused, but this was not the fault of the CWGC.

In my view both were reasonable assumptions given the lack of readily available information. The case of these two soldiers in particular are of concern to me insofar that previous to the interment no news whatsoever of their discovery was available as far as I know and the fact that they were both identified as belonging to the Glosters by apparently their cap badges prompts me to ask for more information regarding the finding of their remains.

All perfectly valid points, but you should be raising these with the MOD, the body responsible.

* Seadog's post in normal, my responses in bold.

[Greyhound]

Does that also include Services and Ceremonies held on 11.11.??

No, because that is an occasion to honour all the fallen, including members of my family.  I was referring to burials.

[Jackie and Tim]

And welcome to the Forum Jackie and Tim.

No doubt the first of many interesting contributions!

Regards,

Brendon.

Thank you Brendon


I think you could be right...................

Jackie and Tim

[seadog]

I have today received the following mail from the CWGC, which is reproduced here in full. I am sure that we will all be delighted at the new arrangements and I sincerely thank the Commission for the understanding they have shown by now publicizing burials taking place in CWGC cemeteries. Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread. Please take a look at the CWGC web site for the latest burial information. I have of course thanked the Commission directly by e-mail.

Norman


Mr (my name)

My colleagues have passed to me your email regarding the publicity given to funerals on the commission's website.

Terry Denham has correctly stated that the arrangements made for funerals of newly discovered casualties rests with the UK Ministry of Defence or the appropriate government and it is for them to decide whether publicity should be given to these events.  This is particularly important in the case of identified casualties because the MOD deals with the relatives and has to be sensitive of their wishes with regard to publicity.  In the past therefore the Commission has, left it to the MOD and their media office to publicise funerals.

Whilst I appreciate Terry's efforts to defend this position, however,I also understand the sentiments of those who feel that the Commission should be more proactive in these matters. We had therefore already decided, with the agreement of the MOD, to give advance notification of forthcoming funerals but unfortunately the new arrangements did not come into force in time for the funerals in April.  We have since given advance notification of the funerals taking place next week on our website see link below:

http://www.cwgc.org/content.asp?id=26&menu=sub

We will continue to give notification of funerals which take place in our cemeteries but the member governments will retain overall responsibility for publicising these events.

I hope that the new arrangements will provide sufficient advance information but we do not ourselves have control over the timing of these events.

Regards

David Parker

David Parker OBE
Director of Information and Secretariat
Commonwealth War Graves Commission

Tel +44 (0) 1628 507147
Fax +44 (0) 1628 507186

[Heid the Ba']

I stand corrected.

Good work seadog.

[seadog]

You do not stand corrected, everyone is entitled to their own views and I know that we on the forum all want the same things just sometimes we have different ways of achieving them. I do not deceive myself that I had anything to do with the decision of the Commission but I am so glad that they have made it, good on them!

Norman

Edited to add:
Now we need the expertise of forum members to inform us as to where those soldiers whose burials are notified on the web site were actually found.

[PBI]

Excellent News Seadog..I am now raising a Glass to the CWGC. and Yourself,Common sense has Prevailed...

[Jim Smithson]

Wow

Well done Norman.  And well done CWGC for recognising the value of the service they give and being generous enough to extend that service to help those that care about what they do.

Jim

[PBI]

Just Pondering Norman on How MANY Burials must have taken Place in the Last Few Years in France & Belgium without any of us on the Forum (Apart from the Priviledged Few) being any the Wiser ?....I wonder if the CWGC would give out this Information ?...The Statistics should make interesting Reading.

[seadog]

Good point PBI, we used to hear about the interments following the Diggers excavations in the Salient but I cannot recall many others, except of course for some high profile cases. The thought also passes through my mind with regard to the finding and interment of German soldier’s remains, surely there must have been some over the years. These I understand would not fall under the responsibility of the CWGC, but it would be interesting to have some facts on both topics.

By the way I am assuming (yet again) that the remains of the six unidentified soldiers to be interred at Cement House on the 27th May are from the result of the Diggers excavations. Perhaps someone can confirm this. On the same subject it would be fitting if there is a forum member at the burials they could take and post some discreet photos of the occasion.

Norman

[BatterySergeantMajor]

During the Burial of a WW1 Scots Soldier in Belgium,a very Portly Chap turned up Dressed as A WW1 Scots Private Soldier,the C.S.M. in Charge of the Burial Party "Politely" asked Him in Broad Scots Vernacular to Please Vacate Himself from the Vicinity of the Burial Service without Delay or He might befall with an Accident...Exit One Large Huffing Puffing Blimp.

I regret to say that this isn't true. I was there too, commanding the Belgian Guard of honour (real soldiers, no reenactors ). Being local, I also knew the chap who turned up in the uniform. I haven't heard the discussion between CSM Steele of the Regiment of the Highlanders and the man but the result of it was that he was invited to attend the ceremony.

I know the reenactor and although he is a comrade of mine and I have certainly no problems with reenactment on well chosen moments and places (esepcially in educational projects), I thought this wasn't the most suitable moment to turn up, dressed as a soldier (to say the least). I explained him my point of view afterwards and he insists that he was invited by the family. I know he is a good chap and it was all well meant so I think he just misjudged the situation. To his defence I also want to point out that he stayed in the background during the ceremony. There are worse cases. About two years ago, there were UK reenactors on a funeral on Cement House who wanted to fire a volley when the coffins were lowered. Luckily the people of the CWGC asked them politely to watch the entrance gate of the cemetery instead.

If a soldier is buried, IMHO the ceremony is an affair of his comrades-soldiers, even if it's ninety years after. No problem if any other visitors attend to reflect but basically this is a soldiers and family- thing. What strikes me is that many of these reenactors have never been in the Forces themselves which might be a reason that they do not always understand our ethos. Having said this, I also want to stress they are not the only ones to blame. Many other people in and outside of the WW1-scene are using these occasions to promote themselves or their institutions, sometimes in a very disgusting way.

About the Germans: they collect their dead till they have a sufficient number (mostly between 20- 30) to organise a ceremony on Langemark German Cemetery so there is often a two year period between these burials. There will be a ceremony again this summer.

Erwin

[seadog]

Erwin, perhaps you will be kind enough to post the date and time of the German interments if and when you are aware of them.

Many Thanks
Norman

[PBI]

Hi Erwin,re the Conversation it certainly did take place.I am not going to belabour the Point,but words were certainly exchanged.I know that some other Forum members were also aware of the Incident.I certainly share your sentiments regarding re Enactors attending Burials.Some of em would never have been able to pass an Army Medical !!!!!!....being Classed as Medical Category 2F 2F...that is Too Fat to Fight !!!!.... .Regards.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Hi

I certainly do not discuss that the discussion took place, I was roughly 50 meters away so I couldn't hear what was said. I just wanted to point out that an acceptable compromise was found (the best thing which could be done on such a moment), also I wanted to explain my point of view about these burials.

I have attended many of these funerals in the area as I see these soldiers as comrades- in- arms and I think it is my duty to remember them. This makes me rather sensitive for an all too clear recuperation for other goals which I strongly dislike.

The burial of John Thomson (Gordon Highlanders)was one of the most moving ceremonies I ever attended. Other strong moments were the funeral of the five Australian soldiers last year in Polygon Wood or the ceremony for the unknown Lancashire Fusilier on Tyne Cot last year. At this occasion it was real Passchendaele- weather. It started raining cats and dogs twice: at the moment when the coffin was brought in and again when it was lowered. Everyone was soaked till his/ her bones, oddly enough most of us felt this as very appropriate. I exchanged a few words with retired UK soldier who was bearing a standard and he putted it simply as "it's for this chap we are doing this". Everything came together there: these simple words, the massive rain and the small but dedicated crowd attending this solemn moment.

Erwin

[PBI]

The Original Point that Norman made regarding the CWGC lack of Transparency,and maybe some type of "Old Boys" Network in Operation regarding information ,has certainly generated a lot of Interest,however i have noticed the abscence of many of the Forums respected Members Comments on this Topic.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Hi

I have enquired this morning. The next German burial ceremony on Langemark should take place on the 24th of July at 13.00

Hope this is of help

Erwin

[seadog]

Thank you for the information, very much appreciated.

Norman

[seadog]

Members will be aware that this and its sister thread was started due to the total lack of any public information with regard to the interment of the remains of two Gloucestershire Regiment soldiers at London Cemetery and Orvillers Cemetery both on the Somme. The CWGC to their great credit is now notifying such interments and rededications within the “News” section of their web site.

The only thing now outstanding is information regarding the circumstances of the discovery of the two sets of remains. Members have been informed that these were identified to the Regiment by virtue of cap badges apparently being discovered with the remains. I ask therefore if any forum member can enlighten me as to the location of the discovery of the remains and also whether any further artefacts were found. This is not an idle request for if the locations are known then perhaps we can name a Battalion etc.

Other forum members have been helpful enough to inform me that the 6 sets of remains to be interred today at Cement House, Flanders came from the Boezinghe excavations and the one soldier interred at Essex Farm was found on the Canal bank by contractors. No news yet of the one set of remains interred also today at Messines Ridge Cemetery.

Norman

[seadog]

The CWGC office in Arras has provided the following information with regard to the discovery and location of the remains of the two Gloucestershire Regiment soldiers buried on the 29th April 2008. My thanks to the Commission for this.

The soldier buried in Ovillers has been found in the same village.
The soldier buried in High Wood as been found in Longueval by workers laying cables

A brass badge from the Gloucestershire Regiment, a selection of webbing and belt buckles, some British army rounds and one British Army uniform button have been found with the bodies.

The grave of the soldier buried in Ovillers is located 1, C, 32.
In High Wood, the headstone can be found 4, C, 18.

May they now rest in peace

Norman

[seadog]

I have as it were resurrected this topic due to my concerns over both recent and upcoming interment of the remains of soldiers for which the CWGC have responsibility. I understand that on Thursday next 23rd April (St Georges Day) there will be the burial of the remains of two soldiers found on the Ypres Salient, this to take place at Tyne Cot. I also understand that since confirmation from the CWGC that such occasions would be notified to the general public on their web site, many other such interments have taken place. I am very disappointed with the attitude of the Commission with regard to this apparent lack of transparency, considering the sentiments expressed on Post 55 of this topic. I trust that my information is correct and I will of course be the first to apologise if it is not. I have contacted the CWGC via their web site and I await a reply.

Norman

[David Faulder]

Apologies if this should be on a different thread (mods please feel free to move)

Found on MOD website
WWI soldiers to be exhumed from mass graves
A History and Honour news article
19 Feb 09


David