65 replies to this topic

[charlesmessenger]

MarkV

Grey Terror and Silver Dart both initially served with 14 LAMB in Mespot.

Impregnable, Desmond, Cleopatra, Harvester, Avenger, Chatham were with 6 LAMB in 1920 befoere is was absorbed by No 1 ACC.

I have a fair amount of material on RRs gathered over the years and so do please PM me with the specific inoframtion you are after and I wil do what I can to fill in gaps.

Charles M

[david murdoch]

Regarding the L.A.M.B war diaries, can anyone let us know what happened to 14th L.A.M.B on this day 1920?
Note the casualties below are all MGC(M) and no ASC. maybe the loss of two armoured cars? All are buried in North Gate Baghdad. Let's remember them.

Corporal ERNEST ANDREWS
55801, 14th Light Armoured Bty., Machine Gun Corps (Motors)
who died age 30
on 05 June 1920
(Served as TAYLOR). Son of Alfred and Sarah Andrews, of Thorrington, Essex.

Private A W BOOTH
88901, 2nd Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers
attd. 14th Light Armoured Bty., Machine Gun Corps (Motors)
who died age 19
on 05 June 1920
Son of Alfred Carr Booth and Florence Booth, of 651, Chesterfield Rd., Woodseats, Sheffield.

W J EARL
59412, "C" Coy. 1st Bn., Rifle Brigade
attd. 14th Light Armoured Bty., Machine Gun Corps (Motors)
who died age 20
on 05 June 1920
Son of James and Mary Louisa Earl, of Thorpe Malsor, Kettering, Northants.

Gunner A V MERCER
3707, 14th Light Armoured Bty., Machine Gun Corps (Motors)
who died
on 05 June 1920

Private A TAYLOR
148721, 14th Light Armoured Bty., Machine Gun Corps (Motors)
who died
on 05 June 1920

Gunner G THOMPSON
127281, 14th Light Armoured Bty., Machine Gun Corps (Motors)
who died
on 05 June 1920

Gunner W WILLIAMS
182383, 14th Light Armoured Bty., Machine Gun Corps (Motors)
who died
on 05 June 1920

Gunner A WOODHOUSE
183458, 14th Light Armoured Bty., Machine Gun Corps (Motors)
who died age 20
on 05 June 1920
Son of George Alfred and Flora Woodhouse, of 76, Victoria Avenue, Barrow-in-Furness, late of 53, Dundee St.

[matteyre]

My wifes grandfather John William Flower was in 6th LAMB, 17th Indian Division. His RR armoured car was called Cleopatra, there is a picture on my post "armoured cars, baghdad"

[domsim]

Dominic, if I could trouble you a bit further, what dates are associated with the identification of these cars in the war diaries?

Now if we can just connect names to the numbered cars...

MarkV

Hi Mark

Only just checked back, the war diaries only survive from April 1918 so all I can give are dates of 1st mention (this of courxe doesn't mean they weren't around-it is clear form the diairies that mention of vehicle numbers is spasmodic).
Hejaz Armoured Car Battery

Armoured cars
LC336 (1st mention September 1918)
LC339 (1st mention September 1918)
LC340 (1st mention April 1918)
LC0808 (1st mention May 1918)
LC0809 (1st mention May 1918)

Tenders
Rolls Royce
LC341 (1st mention April 1918)
LC1105 (1st mention April 1918)
LC1298 (1st mention May 1918)
LC3414 (I have looked at this again and it is fact LC341)
LC1005 (1st mention May1918, the number is confirmed now after another look)

Wolesley
LC369 (1st mention May 1918)

There are a number of tentative conclusions from this:
1. The number series for armoured cars and tenders from a unit seems to be a single sequntial series-this is clear from the 300's where LC341 & LC369 (tenders) are part of the same series as LC's 336,339 & 340 (A.C.'s). this would also suggest they came form the same unit. The Wolesley tender is identifiable as part of the reenforcement of the Hedjaz Armoured Car Battery by 2 Roll-Royce Armoured cars, a Wolesley tender and 6 Ford cars that reported for duty at Aqaba on the 5th May 1918, supplied by No.1 Battery Armoured Cars. This would suggest the LC300 series was for No.1 Battery cars .
2. This would make the LC0800's the 10 (RN) Armoured Motor Battery cars.
3. Which unit did tenders LC1005, LC1105 (I am suspicious of these 2 and wondering if there  is a diary typo and that they may be one vehicle?) & LC1298 come from?

This is the other way round from your idea Mark, but I think the Wolesley is the clincher.

Phots from T E Lawrence studies site from the Imperial War Museum

Cheers
Dominic

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[david murdoch]

By the numbering, it may be LC341, was also an armoured car, converted back to an open top. This happened to several armoured cars
David.

[RRAC]

Hi Dominic,

Thank you very much for checking the war diaries and posting this information.  It is of great help.  Your tentative conclusions are very interesting as well.  


On a related note and in response to David, the book Steel Chariots in the Desert was written by a member of the Duke of Westminster’s armoured car unit and mentions the transfer of some Rolls Royces to the Hedjaz Armoured Car Battery.  The Duke’s unit originated as the No. 2 Squadron of the Royal Navy Air Service’s (RNAS) Armoured Car Division (RNACD).  This 12 car unit was transferred en mass to the Army in 1915 and formed Nos. 1, 2, and 3 of the Armoured Motor Battery (AMB) of the Machine Gun Corps (Motors), each battery being composed of four cars.  The book’s author mentions the names of four cars:  Bitter, Blast, Bloodhound, and Bulldog (or Bull Dog) which formed one such battery.  The author states that two of the cars, Blast and Bloodhound, were eventually converted into tenders in Alexandria, Egypt and then transferred to the Hedjaz Armoured Car Battery.  I do not have the book here with me right now, but we can check it for the date of this transfer and see if we can use this to associate these names with a short list of car numbers or specific units.

By the way, it is not stated in the book, but I suspect that the fact that all four of the cars’ names begin with the second letter of the alphabet is indicative of their being a battery "B" or a "No 2" unit when named ("2"="B").  - Any thoughts on this are welcome.  


I am updating my database with new information that you and others from here at this forum have provided.  I am also going through my image collection to make sure the database is as complete as possible.  I have recently found a way to include photographs of identified cars within the database itself, so it is becoming more interesting visually while increasing in coverage as well.  I hope to make this database available online soon - if I can find an easily accessible (and free) place to do it.  At the moment the database is a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet of just over 11 Megs in size, but I anticipate that it might grow to twice that size once I have entered in all of the photos of identifiable cars that I have.

MarkV

[david murdoch]

Regarding the origins of the cars, my grandfather's unit 8th L.A.M.B was formed in France by the merging of 8th and 9th A.M.Bs two months prior to shipping to Mesopotamia. I don't know which unit he was in prior to the merger or the M.M.G battery before that. It looks like both these A.M.Bs had ex RNAS cars. Unfortunatly on none of my own pictures are there any names or numbers visible even on the normal places.

Mark
In post 13, looking at the list of names, there is a high percentage which are also Royal Navy warship names... obvious ones being Renown,Repulse and Thunderer even some of the "later cars" like Chatham and Cerberus, which may be a pointer to thier origins. I would think it would have been bad form to change the name, even though the changed hand several times.
I'm at work now, but I'll go down the list and hightlight the ones and copy back to you.

[RRAC]

David,

Thank you for cross referencing the ship names found among the armoured cars.  I look forward to seeing what you turn up.  It seems likely that the names of at least these cars date from the Royal Navy period.  Also, in his book Steel Chariots in the Desert, S.C. Rolls identifies "Blast", "Bloodhound", "Bull Dog", and "Bitter" by name during the period in which he was a petty officer in the Royal Navy based at Wormwood Scrubbs, London, England.  Given the common origin for the 1914 Pattern cars at that facility, one would expect some uniformity in naming convention.

I agree that once named, cars tended to keep their names.  However, it remains possible that some cars were either renamed or not initially named until later.  

So far, in putting together my database of identified cars, I have come across a few exceptional cases.  For example, I have found two photos of a car in RAF service, clearly named "Euphrates" in both photos, where one is a 1914 Pattern with updated chassis and the other is a 1920 Pattern.  This is not just a case of a swapped turret (which did occasionally occur).  The radiator shields, driver's visor shield, and the position of the side vision ports all point to these being two different cars.  Unfortunately, these two photos are not dated, but I suspect that this case represents the replacement of a worn-out car with a newer model that was then named in honor of the retired car.

Similarly, I have come across labeled photos showing the names "Carisbrooke" and "Cambrai" being used first for 1914 Pattern cars, then 1924 Pattern cars.  Interestingly, cars by these names are shown together in one photo as 1914 Pattern with RAF roundels and then together in another photo as 1924 Pattern Army cars.  I am not sure what to make of this cross-service naming coincidence.  I suppose that it is possible that cars in the two services could have carried the same names simultaneously.

In most cases, though, there appears to be continuity in the names of cars.  Names seen on 1914 Pattern cars usually continue to be seen on 1914 Pattern hulls, even as the underlying chassis are replaced with newer ones over the years.

MarkV

Mark
In post 13, looking at the list of names, there is a high percentage which are also Royal Navy warship names... obvious ones being Renown,Repulse and Thunderer even some of the "later cars" like Chatham and Cerberus, which may be a pointer to thier origins. I would think it would have been bad form to change the name, even though the changed hand several times.
I'm at work now, but I'll go down the list and hightlight the ones and copy back to you.

[derekb]

Hello MarkV and Spud,

I have some photographs of Armoured Cars, suggestions are that they may have been taken in India, they are of the 7th Armoured Car Company and include Rolls Royce armoured cars with spoked wheels, these are named as Silver Knight, Silver Dart and Silver Cloud. there is also a Rolls Royce 40/50 tender which looks like a de-armoured car, a Rolls Royce Admiralty pattern motorcycle, an Albion A10 3 tonner, a Bristol F2B Fighter Plane, a Ford 7 Tourer and some Crossley 1923 India Pattern Armoured Cars, one ofwhich is named "Arion" and written on the back is "One which escorted the Viceroy to the Frontier and back", they came together with various photos and postcards.

Regards,

Derekb

[RRAC]

Derekb,

Thank you for this very useful information!  I will update the database immediately.  Do you have any information as to the dates for the photos showing the named Rolls Royce armoured cars?

I would encourage you and others on this forum to share scans of your photos showing Rolls Royce armoured cars.  If you need a place to post them, I have a Photobucket account and would be happy to do so.  Please feel free to contact me via personal message if you are interested.

MarkV

[RRAC]

David,

Here is the latest copy of the list of names found on Rolls Royce armoured cars of vartious patterns:

Acasta
Adder
Andromeda
Astra
Atalanta
Aurora
Avenger
Bedouin
Bison
Bitter
Blast
Bloodhound
Bulldog (or Bull Dog)
Buffalo
Cambrai
Carisbrooke
Carlow
Centaur
Cerberus
Charon
Chatham
Cheetah
Chimaera
Cleopatra
Cockatrice
Condor
Conqueror
Curlew
Custom House
Cyclops
Danny Boy
Desmond
Despatch
Dhibban
Diana
Dragon
Eagle
Euphrates
Explorer
Ex-Mutineer
The Fighting 2nd
Flying Fifty
Fox
Golden Eagle
Golden Goblin
Golden Mank
Grand Parade
Gray Knight
Gray Terror
Harvester
Hawk
Impregnable
Intrepid
Jackal
Jaguar
Jubilee
Kilmichael
Knockananna
Lion
Lough Gill
Mercury
Moneygall
Orion
Panther
Pathfinder
Python
Ramillies
Relentless
Renown
Repulse
Revenge
Royal Sovereign
Satire
Shark
Silver Cloud
Silver Dart
Silver Fox
Silver Ghost
Silver Knight
Silver Snipe
Slievenamon
Superb
Terror
The Baby
The Ballinalee
The Big Fellow
The High Chief
The Manager
Thunderbolt
Thunderer
Tigris
Tom Keogh
Vengeance
Victory
Virginia
Vulture
Wedding Bells
Yellow Wizard

This list is an excerpt from the database I am putting together.  If anyone sees any errors or omissions, please bring them to my attention!

Thank you,

MarkV

[domsim]

By the way, it is not stated in the book, but I suspect that the fact that all four of the cars’ names begin with the second letter of the alphabet is indicative of their being a battery "B" or a "No 2" unit when named ("2"="B").  - Any thoughts on this are welcome.  


MarkV

Hi Mark

Glad the info was useful. The "B's" idea is interesting as I remember reading somewhere that Lawrence's personal vehicle was known as "Blue Mist". I don't know if this was a tender or armoured car or if Lawrence named it himself (sounds a bit more esoteric than the more prosaic navy names!)

As an extra I flicked through my copy of Seven Pillars of Wisdom and there is a side on photo of a RR tender at Akaba in 1918 and intriguingly the number on the side appears to be LC342-but it is not clear due to grills on the side of the bonnet and the shadows- could be another tentative number? this is another Imperial War Museum photo.

Maybe as David says LC341 & now LC342 are the 2 converted tenders? Its a shame there are no war diaries for the whole period>

Cheers
Dominic

[RRAC]

Dominic,

I took a look at the photo of the tender in my copy of Seven Pillars of Wisdom and cannot make out the last digit of the hull number either.

Thank you for mentioning the armoured cars that were converted into RR tenders.  I will include their numbers and names in the database as well.

MarkV

Hi Mark

Glad the info was useful. The "B's" idea is interesting as I remember reading somewhere that Lawrence's personal vehicle was known as "Blue Mist". I don't know if this was a tender or armoured car or if Lawrence named it himself (sounds a bit more esoteric than the more prosaic navy names!)

As an extra I flicked through my copy of Seven Pillars of Wisdom and there is a side on photo of a RR tender at Akaba in 1918 and intriguingly the number on the side appears to be LC342-but it is not clear due to grills on the side of the bonnet and the shadows- could be another tentative number? this is another Imperial War Museum photo.

Maybe as David says LC341 & now LC342 are the 2 converted tenders? Its a shame there are no war diaries for the whole period>

Cheers
Dominic

[RRAC]

Hello,

David Murdoch was kind enough to compare the names of the armoured cars with Royal Navy ships that pre-existed WWI.  As you can see below, most of the names have possible Royal Navy ties (although David pointed out that many of these ships were relatively minor and therefor the name selection may be coincidental).  The use of Royal Navy ship names may hint that these cars were named during their service in the RNAS units.  Supporting this theory, acording to Steel Chariots in the Desert, Blast, Bitter, Bulldog, and Bloodhound were all named during their RNAS days and, according to David's research, all four of these names had previously been used for Royal Navy vessels.

Here is a breakdown of the Rolls Royce armoured cars names, sorted into (apparantly) related groups:

Royal Navy ships existing prior to WWI:
Acasta
Acute
Adder
Andromeda
Astra
Atalanta
Aurora
Avenger
Bison
Bitter
Blast
Bloodhound
Bulldog (or Bull Dog)
Buffalo
Carisbrooke
Centaur
Cerberus
Charon
Chatham
Chimaera
Cleopatra
Cockatrice
Condor  
Conqueror
Curlew
Cyclops
Desmond
Despatch
Diana
Dragon
Eagle
Fox
Hawk
Impregnable
Intrepid
Jubilee
Lion
Mercury
Orion
Panther
Pathfinder
Python
Ramillies
Renown
Repulse
Revenge
Royal Sovereign
Shark
Superb
Terror
Thunderer
Vengeance
Victory

Regional Names Related to the area in which they were Deployed:
Bedouin (desert tribe)
Cheetah (desert predator)
Dhibban    (place name in Iraq)
Euphrates  (river in Iraq.)
Jackal (desert predator)
Jaguar  (desert predator)
Tigris (river in Iraq)
Vulture (desert scavenger bird)

Battles:
Cambrai (1917 battle that marked the 1st successful use of tanks - perhaps this name should be included among those related to their region of deployment?)

Irish Armoured Cars:
Carlow
Custom House
Danny Boy
Ex-Mutineer
The Fighting 2nd
Flying Fifty
Kilmichael
Knockananna
Lough Gill
Moneygall
Slievenamon
The Baby
The Ballinalee
The Big Fellow
The High Chief
The Manager
Tom Keogh

Golden:
Golden Eagle
Golden Goblin
Golden Mank

Grey:
Grey Knight
Grey Terror

Silver:
Silver Cloud
Silver Dart
Silver Fox
Silver Ghost
Silver Knight
Silver Snipe

Special Cases:
Wedding Bells (car was named post-war after use in a wedding)

No Known Associations:
Explorer
Grand Parade
Harvester
Relentless
Satire
Thunderbolt  
Virginia
Yellow Wizard (perhaps this should be grouped with the other color series?)

These are theoretical associations of actual names.  Comments, corrections, and additions are very welcome.

MarkV

[RRAC]

Dominic,

Acording to S.C. Rolls in his book Steel Chariots in the Desert, "Blue Mist" was a somewhat older Rolls Royce Silver Ghost touring car that was made into a tender - it did not start out as an armoured car.  Unlike the the other cars, "Blue Mist" was apparantly not an "Alpine" chassis car.  (The Rolls Royce "Alpine" was a heavy-duty Silver Ghost chassis developed in the years before the war for competition driving in the Alps.  This chassis design became the basis for that used in the armoured cars.)  As result, "Blue Mist" was a bit over-loaded/under-powered when equipped and loaded like the other, former armoured car, tenders.  "Blue Mist" reportedly reverted back to the single rear wheel configuration, when possible, to reduce drag and maximize speed.  

Perhaps "Blue Mist" was Lawrence's favorite because it was not typically loaded as heavily as the others?  It also looked a bit more like a civilian car.

MarkV

[RRAC]

Hello again,

Here are several additional names that have recently come to light in the outrageously expensive two-volume book The Edwardian Rolls Royce, sorted according the apparently related naming groups:

Royal Navy Ships existing prior to WWI:
Arrow
Alert
Assault
Alliance
Adament
Bear
Biter
Blaze
Bouncer
Brave
Bustler
Chesapeake
Ironduke

Regional Names Related to the area in which they were Deployed:
Buzzard (desert scavenger bird)

Colors:
Black Terror (?)

No known Associations:
Buzy (may relate to flies, see note below)

Also, I have learned that "Dhibban" is not only a desert place name, it literally means "flies", as in the annoying insects commonly found in the desert.  Given the other desert animal names used for cars, the "flies" definition, rather than a particular place name, may be the more correct source for this armoured car's name.

MarkV

[longboat]

Hello Pals,

Hope you dont find this post irreverent but the sketch is by my grandfather sometime in 1917 while he was re-cuperating from his wounds received on the Sommme. As just a poor footslogger in the infantry I like to think that it gives a general view of how the Rolls Royce was perceived then, much like today.

A little envious perhaps but not without humour.

regards longboat.

[kevin Tee]

David,

Here is the latest copy of the list of names found on Rolls Royce armoured cars of vartious patterns:

Acasta
Adder
Andromeda
Astra
Atalanta
Aurora
Avenger
Bedouin
Bison
Bitter
Blast
Bloodhound
Bulldog (or Bull Dog)
Buffalo
Cambrai
Carisbrooke
Carlow
Centaur
Cerberus
Charon
Chatham
Cheetah
Chimaera
Cleopatra
Cockatrice
Condor
Conqueror
Curlew
Custom House
Cyclops
Danny Boy
Desmond
Despatch
Dhibban
Diana
Dragon
Eagle
Euphrates
Explorer
Ex-Mutineer
The Fighting 2nd
Flying Fifty
Fox
Golden Eagle
Golden Goblin
Golden Mank
Grand Parade
Gray Knight
Gray Terror
Harvester
Hawk
Impregnable
Intrepid
Jackal
Jaguar
Jubilee
Kilmichael
Knockananna
Lion
Lough Gill
Mercury
Moneygall
Orion
Panther
Pathfinder
Python
Ramillies
Relentless
Renown
Repulse
Revenge
Royal Sovereign
Satire
Shark
Silver Cloud
Silver Dart
Silver Fox
Silver Ghost
Silver Knight
Silver Snipe
Slievenamon
Superb
Terror
The Baby
The Ballinalee
The Big Fellow
The High Chief
The Manager
Thunderbolt
Thunderer
Tigris
Tom Keogh
Vengeance
Victory
Virginia
Vulture
Wedding Bells
Yellow Wizard

This list is an excerpt from the database I am putting together. If anyone sees any errors or omissions, please bring them to my attention!

Thank you,

MarkV

Hello Mark et al,

This is my first post to this site so please excuse any errors in my posting.
My interest is actually WWII. I have been compiling a name / WD database used on vehicles used by the British, Canadian, Polish, Czech, Dutch etc for a few years.
Names and numbers are sent to me from literally all over the world and a few of the most recent are Rolls Royce Armoured Cars.
These are from, I think, No.s 3 and 4 Squadron RNAS. Dardanelles 1915 / 16
3 Sqn Cockatrice, Camilla, Cordelia, Caradoc and Chesapeake.
4 Sqn Decoy, Diana, Dasher, Doris and Delight.
Also a radio car called Columbine.
The original source is from the AFV News.
I hope this is of interest.

Cheers
Kevin

[pomech]

 1sqd_dec14_mk1.jpg   77.39K   14 downloads  1sqd_dec14_mk1.jpg   77.39K   14 downloadsSome photos of No 1 Squadron ( Royal Naval Air Service)
Armoured car Division "North Walsham Norfolk December 1914.

[pomech]

German South West Africa
 no1_sqd_gswa_1mk2.jpg   77.09K   8 downloads

[pomech]

Petty Officer Mechanic Rowland Bellian

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•  no1_sqd_gswa_mk1.jpg   46.46K   8 downloads

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Nice photos pomech. Have you seen his service register?
Name  Bellian, Rowland
Official Number:  F1082
Place of Birth:  Warrington, Lancashire
Date of Birth: 03 March 1891
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

[pomech]

Thanks for that, He was my Grandfather.

[matteyre]

This is a picture of men attached to 6th LAMB with Rolls armoured car "Cleopatra" in Mesopotamia. My wifes grandfather John William Flower was in the ASC attached to the LAMBs and it was his armoured car.

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•  WW1_001.jpg   22.1K   11 downloads

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Thanks for that, He was my Grandfather.

Glad I can help. If he transferred into the RAF his service record for them may be in AIR 79/1823.