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#1 tommarmot

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 03:43 PM

"Cuidigh n' Righ" is the motto of the Seaforth Highlanders. I understand that it means "Help the king" but how does one pronounce it? It was tattooed on my grandfathers forearm along with his regimental number.

I've read that it is the only British army regimental motto that is in gaelic, but have come to suspect such claims.

#2 kildaremark

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 07:37 PM

Us folk in Ireland pronounce these things slightly differently and would also spell it differently but here goes:-

"Quidick on ree"

"Riogh / Ri" means King

Scots and Irish are "Q" celts so the c in cuidigh is pronounced like a "Q". The equivalent word in Welsh probably begins with a "p" as they are "P" celts.

That's the end of today's lesson.

Mark





#3 truthergw

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 07:47 PM

There will be better Gaelic speakers than I on the forum but I think that if the gh is not silent it will be Scots ch rather than ck. You are correct to be dubious about the only Gaelic motto. Caber Feidh springs to mind. Kabr Fay.

#4 Steven Broomfield

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 09:46 PM

Bydand?

#5 west coast

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 06:09 AM

royal irish rangers! faugh a ballagh! clear the way. mike.

#6 AllieT

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 06:11 AM

I thought Caberfeidh meant something similar to chief? For example, the Caberfeidh of the Mackenzies is currently the Earl of Cromartie. The Seaforth branch of the family (not just the regiment) have the motto 'Cuidich'n Rhi'. Non-Seaforth Mackenzies tend to use the Latin motto instead - luceo non uro: I shine, not burn.

Allie

#7 Lachlan07

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:11 AM

Ciamar a tha sibh ?

I believe the pronounciation phonetically is KOOJUCH AN RYE (where CH is as in loCH)

The local dialect of some some Scottish-Gaelic speakers (notably Argyll) would say Ree instead of Rye (Rye is "proper" standard Gaelic). Same with the word tigh = house. (Tye or tee - eg in Kintyre, Argyll, there's a village called Bellochantuy - the locals say Bellochantee but properly it would be said Bellochantye).

Another simple word which changed pronounciation is the Gaelic word plaid - blanket. Usual pronounciation is plaatch (rhymes with english word catch). But in Lewis, it's said as plaatchit. Another word is bainne, meaning milk. A Sgiannach (Skye-man) would say banya but a Leoisach (Lewisman) woould say bonnye.

I have even known Gaelic-speakers from Skye (who always think theirs is the purest Gaelic) who professed they could not converse in Gaelic with other Gaelic-speakers from Argyll and who had to revert to English to be mutually understood ! (I think there's a tad of one-upmanship in that attitude - the Sgiannachs referred to Argyll Gaelic as mongrel-Gaelic ! miaow !!!)

#8 tommarmot

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:34 PM

Well, thank you one and all.
Gaelic speakers are mighty scarce on this side of the pond.
Tom

#9 MBrockway

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE (Steven Broomfield @ May 30 2008, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bydand?


Sorry Steve, but 'bydand' is actually English ... albeit in a rather archaic form! I think it's the present participle of the verb "to bide" meaning "biding" as in "biding my time" and for the Gordons is usually translated as "Remaining" with the sense being firm, unshakeable, reliable.
Cheers,
Mark

#10 truthergw

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE (tommarmot @ Jun 1 2008, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, thank you one and all.
Gaelic speakers are mighty scarce on this side of the pond.
Tom

Not nearly as scarce as one might think. USA and Canada are the great stronghold of the Gaelic culture. Pipe bands by the score and Highland Games by the dozen. A Scotsman preserved your wilderness and you preserve his culture. Fair exchange is no robbery, as they say.

#11 MBrockway

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 03:03 PM

QUOTE (MBrockway @ Jun 2 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry Steve, but 'bydand' is actually English ... albeit in a rather archaic form! I think it's the present participle of the verb "to bide" meaning "biding" as in "biding my time" and for the Gordons is usually translated as "Remaining" with the sense being firm, unshakeable, reliable.
Cheers,
Mark


I should make clear that the '-and' form of the present participle was in use in Scots English and rarely seen south of the border where the '-ing' form dominated. That southern form eventually became that used in all modern "Englishes".

My first kilt as a boy - handed down at least two generations! - was Gordon complete with the "Bydand" motto on the sporran crest, which caused me to dig into all this! We're actually Muirs, but in those days it was hard to find the Muir tartan. My current kilt uses the Muir tartan and by one of those weird GWF convergences that same Muir tartan has been used as the basis of the California "State Tartan" (I kid you not!) in recognition for the wilderness conservation work done by scots-born John Muir in Yosemite etc that truthergw mentions in the previous post!

Spooky!
Cheers,
Mark

#12 Rob Bulloch

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 03:25 PM

Allie.
"Caberfeidh" does this motto not mean "horns of the deer"

Cheers Rob.

#13 Black Watch

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 08:49 PM

QUOTE (west coast @ May 31 2008, 07:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
royal irish rangers! faugh a ballagh! clear the way. mike.



Royal Irish Fusiliers please wink.gif

Neil

#14 4thGordons

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 08:57 PM

QUOTE (MBrockway @ Jun 2 2008, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry Steve, but 'bydand' is actually English ... albeit in a rather archaic form! I think it's the present participle of the verb "to bide" meaning "biding" as in "biding my time" and for the Gordons is usually translated as "Remaining" with the sense being firm, unshakeable, reliable.
Cheers,
Mark


It would seem that this is in some dispute. See HERE

I have also seen references which suggest it is a "Doric" (the dialect of NE Scotland / Aberdeen) Bydand is listed as a Doric word on "AboutAberdeen.com"

I seem to recall reading a history of the regiment at one point which suggested it was actually a corruption of a norman/French word....!

Chris

#15 AllieT

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 01:57 AM

QUOTE (Rob Bulloch @ Jun 3 2008, 03:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Allie.
"Caberfeidh" does this motto not mean "horns of the deer"

Cheers Rob.


I've not ever heard it used as a 'motto'. I always thought it was a title, but it would make sense that it mean antlers of the stag or similar as the Caberfeidh of the Seaforth Mackenzies wears the clan badge of a stags head. Clan members wear the same badge, but it is surrounded by a belt and buckle. The Seaforth Highlanders Regimental badge is - I think - just the stags head without the belt?

There are also gaelic 'war cries' or whatever you like to call them. But again, those are not 'mottoes'.

Allie

#16 Rob Bulloch

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 04:12 AM

Allie.
You are of course correct "Cabarfeidh" is not a motto, this is the name given to the Clan Chief of the Mackenzie of Seaforth now bear with me on this. The legend is that one of the forebears of the MacKenzies of Seaforth rescued King Alexander from a charging stag and for this deed he was presented with the deers head and antlers (Cabarfeidh) and also from this incident came the clan motto "Cuidich'N Rhi" Help the King, but I think this only applies to the MacKenzie of Seaforth, and it is only legend of course.

Mo righ's mo dhuchaich.

Cheers Rob.
Edit.
Ps The buckler belt around a badge is a mark of allegance to the Clan Chief, the badge the Chief wears has no Buckler belt

#17 west coast

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 05:52 AM

QUOTE (Black Watch @ Jun 2 2008, 08:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Royal Irish Fusiliers please wink.gif

Neil


yes of course neil, but now they have been amalgamated and no longer fusiliers but rangers. at least they have kept the motto!!.

my dads old regt ,inniskilling fusiliers, burma ww2.

cheers , mike , perth.

#18 Lachlan07

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 10:22 AM

Actually, Ive just remembered a variation. My dad, a native of Tighnabruaich, Argyll (his dad's family before him always came from around Dalnaspidal and Blair Atholl, Perthshire and his mum's side from Glendaruel, Argyll) used to refer to the Seaforths' motto in local Argyll Gaelic rather than the Skye/Lochalsh Gaelic of the MacKenzies and MacRaes. He would typcially say "Koo-ich un ree" rather than "Koo-juch an rye".

Such variation in such a small country ! (God's Country - biggrin.gif )

Ne Obliviscaris ! wink.gif

#19 squirrel

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 10:44 AM

Royal Irish Rangers were amalgamated with the Ulster Defence Regiment in 1993 to form the Royal Irish Regiment.



#20 west coast

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 11:14 AM

squirrel, you are quite correct. i think they still have the motto, faugh a ballagh ? mike. perth.

#21 squirrel

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 12:22 PM

Mike,

yes they do still have "Faugh a ballagh".

The pronunciation is a bit dodgy though............... need to be careful.
I got this from an Irish Gaelic speaker.

"Fock a ballack"

meaning could be misconstrued by those not listening carefuly.

#22 Vista52

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 07:36 PM

[quote name='truthergw' date='Jun 2 2008, 07:35 AM' post='932041']
Not nearly as scarce as one might think. USA and Canada are the great stronghold of the Gaelic culture. Pipe bands by the score and Highland Games by the dozen. A Scotsman preserved your wilderness and you preserve his culture. Fair exchange is no robbery, as they say.
[/quote

Tom,

I've not thought of it in that way. very good. I live in Vista, California. Average daytime temperature 72 degrees and home of the San Diego County Highland games.

Paul

#23 MBrockway

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 12:49 AM

QUOTE (4thGordons @ Jun 2 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It would seem that this is in some dispute. See HERE

I have also seen references which suggest it is a "Doric" (the dialect of NE Scotland / Aberdeen) Bydand is listed as a Doric word on "AboutAberdeen.com"

I seem to recall reading a history of the regiment at one point which suggested it was actually a corruption of a norman/French word....!

Chris

Chris,
The '-and' form of the Present Participle was the standard usage in Middle Scots, which was the form of English present in Scotland until approximately the accession of James VI to the English throne (or James I for southern readers! rolleyes.gif ) when it began to lose ground to "English" English.

Doric is of course a dialect of Modern Scots, so technically is a variant of English, and I understand it hung on to the '-and' form a lot more tenaciously than the other Scots dialects spoken in the rest of the country, which either switched to the southern English usage of '-ing' (usually shortened to '-in') or contracted it to '-an'.

"Bydand" may still be in use in Doric in modern times, but it would have been used and understood by all Scots speakers up to at least 1700 and probably longer.

I've got some references for this somewhere - but Aberdeen is a great centre for Scots Language studies, so you're probably closer to the action than me on this anyway!

I'm surprised your link doesn't mention the simple Present Participle explanation! The "Bide and fecht" theory doesn't sound very plausible to me!

Fascinating eh!
Cheers,
Mark

#24 Lachlan07

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 06:37 AM

The Canadians were mentioned above. They have used the Gaelic much more in the mottos of their regiments than the Scottish regiments have done. I presume that is because the Canadians regiments were more independent and could choose their mottos, rather than those Scottish regiments whose badge mottos owed something to their aristocratic founders and may in the realms of heraldry etc, be it Gaelic, English, French or Latin

eg: Black Watch - Nemo Me Impune Lacessit (Latin); Seaforths - Cuidich 'n Righ (Gaelic); Gordons - Bydand (disputed - some say Gaelic, some say Scots, I even saw German mentioned somewhere); Camerons - Cameron (English); Argylls - badge says "Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders" but collar badges say "Ne Obliviscaris" (Latin) and "Sans Peur" (French); Lovat Scouts - either Lovat's Scouts WW1 or "Je Suis Prest" WW2 (French) - I think the badge of the 4/5th Seaforths also had "Sans Peur" (French).

By contrast - example of Candian units with Scottish Gaelic mottos past and present include:-

1st Hussars - Hodie Non Cras (obviously phonetic)

The Lorne Scots - Air Son Ar Duthchais

Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Hldrs - Dileas Gu Bas

Nova Scotia Hldrs - Siol Na Fear Fearail

48th Hldrs - Dileas Gu Brath

Argyll & Sutherland Hldrs of Canada - Albainn Gu Brath

Queen's Own cameron Hldrs of Canada - Ullamh

Calgary Hldrs - Airaghardt

Seaforth Hldrs of Canada - Caber Feidh gu Brath

Canadian Scottish - Deas Gu Cath

35 (Sydney) Service Battalion - Fritheilidh Sinn

Capr Breton Hldrs - Siol Na Fear Fearail

43rd Btn CEF - Ullamh

Cumberland Hldrs - Cos Cheum Nach Gabh Tilleadh

North Nova Scotia Hldrs - Cos Cheum Nach Gabh Tilleadh

Pictou Hldrs - Cuidich'n Righ

67th Btn CEF - Sabaid

Certainly outnumbers the Gaelic-motto regiments back in the old country !

#25 west coast

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:43 AM

squirrel, i`m irish meself. but not having much of the irish language . but i do know that the gh is silent so its pronounced " faa a ballaa " [drag out the aaas]. in the same theme, i`v just got back from ireland and while there i visited the aran islands where the language is spoken irish [gaelge] and they only speak english to the visitors, a great place to visit. mike.