I have read that some German Imperial Navy ships occasionally carried chaplains on board (to perform church services, offer inspiration and counsel to the crew, etc.).

How common was this practice? Did the Royal Navy do something similar? Perhaps most importantly, does anyone know if these chaplains were naval officers or civilians assigned to shipboard duty?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bucephalus

There is indeed a long history of chaplains being carried aboard RN warships, Bucephalus, a practice which carries on to this day.

Should the Channel 5 documentary "Warship" be available on cable or PBS over your side, you may even get to see one in action! The chaplain aboard HMS Illustrious is featured in several of the episodes - he is even VIPTAX'ed over to the USS Cole in a Merlin (his experience with ships' boats being such that he prefers to travel by air). From "The Bish"'s explanations, chaplains are wardroom officers.

If you have a mind, or a calling, you may apply for a post here:

http://www.careers.royalnavy.mod.uk/careers/chaplain.php#

I have already put an answer to this on the thread "Army chaplain's department'.


RN chaplains are NOT officers, but they mess with the officers for various practical reasons of shipboard organisation.

Dating from the days of sail there is a chaplain's lament that in authority to use the heads he is classed as crew and not officer.

Also, during WW2 an edict was issued by the Admiralty at the request of the men, that an area for prayer be set aside in each and every warship. Of course, the biggest ships already had chapels, but even the smallest ship had a shrine, cross or whatever, and a seat or two or a place to kneel. You will see such a side chapel in HMS Belfast.

Note, this was at the men's request, not politicians or the churches.

There is a good illustration of Healdav's point in 'The Cross on the Sword - Catholic Chaplains in the Forces' by Johnstone & Hagerty, 1996.
At Jutland, Father Anthony Pollen was in Warspite as catholic chaplain to the 5th Battle Squadron. He "threw himself into a cordite fire caused by enemy shell-fire without a thought for his own safety to rescue two seamen. He managed to drag them out alive becoming badly burned himself ... ... his commanding officer recommended Fr Pollen for the Distinguished Service Order. The Commander-in-Chief, Admiral Sir John Jellicoe, refused to support the recommendation for the DSO, on the grounds that Fr Pollen was not a commissioned officer: he was awarded the lesser Distinguished Service Cross, which could be awarded to warrant officers. Jellicoe's decision was strictly in accordance with the rules and was probably recommended to him by his staff..."

By the way J & H list five other catholic priests present at Jutland;
Tiger - Fr Thomas Bradley
Natal - Fr William Driscol
HMAS Australia - Fr Patrick Gibbons
Bellerophon - Fr William Meagher
Black Prince - Fr Stewart Phelan OMI

regards
Michael

Hi,

"RN chaplains are NOT officers, but they mess with the officers for various practical reasons of shipboard organisation."

Chaplain and Chaplain of the fleet are Commissioned officers; Kings Regulations and Admiralty Orders 1913 Chapter IV Section 223

Officers shall be promoted or nominated in the first instance, as the case may be, to the undermentioned ranks by commission given by the Admiralty:-

Other Branches.- Commissioned Officers.
Chaplain of the Fleet.
Chaplain.

But do not hold any Rank; Kings Regulations and Admiralty Orders 1913 Chapter IV Section 215

Chaplain of the Fleet and Chaplains.- Chaplains shall not hold any naval rank, but shall retain when afloat the position to which their office would entitle them on shore. The Chaplain of the Fleet shall be considered the head of the Chaplains.

Regards Charles

There is also a book on the subject, "The Sea Chaplains", which I saw at a local book fair (but did not buy - I love the Royal Navy, but chaplains are a bit of an obscure subject even for me....).

Speculating wildly, maybe there were chaplains aboard RN ships as far back as The Interregnum. (What was the RN called then, btw? Oliver's Navy??) All regiments of the New Model Army were riddled with Puritan preachers, and maybe they thought that the RN should share the love??

RN Chaplains wear the Naval Officer type however without rank lace on the cuffs. The cap badge is the basic officer design, however it is outlined in wire and not "filled/coloured" in.
It is the Naval tradition that the "Bish" takes the rank of the person he is speaking to.

re post #4 above

SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 15 SEPTEMBER, 1916 9065
LIST OF OFFICERS RECOMMENDED
FOR HONOURS FOR SERVICE IN
THE BATTLE OF JUTLAND.
Remarks of Rear-Admiral Evan-Thomas
Rev. Anthony Pollen (Roman Catholic
Chaplain).
The Reverend Anthony Pollen carried
men injured by severe burns from the
battery deck to the distributing station, he
himself being severely burned at the time.
Aged 56.

Admiralty, 15th September, 1916.
The KING has been graciously pleased to
give orders for the following appointments to
the Distinguished Service Order and for the
award of the Distinguished Service Cross to
the undermentioned Officers in recognition of
their services as mentioned in the foregoing
despatch: —
To receive the Distinguished Service Cross
The Rev. Anthony Pollen (Roman Catholic
Chaplain).

But if 'Officer' means Commission or Warrant??????????

Back in the old Nelsonian times it was at the captain's discretion as to whether his ship carried a chaplain or not although some admirals (especially Parker ['dismal Jimmy'] applied some pressure for them to do so). Where the Captain did not carry a chaplain he was responsible for holding religious services on his ship including one Sunday in four and burials (this may be the cause of the old myth that Captains could perform marriages - in fact a license to do so was required and most captains did not have one of these). Where a chaplain was carried the captain would request the wardroom to extend their hospitality to him, in theory they could say no but it would be an unusual wardroom that did so. It was also the 1st lieutenant's job to arrange his accommodation. The Admiralty Board did not appoint chaplains but had to approve them, as they paid their stipend. Some particularly pious (and what we would today call snobbish) admirals (and a few wealthy captains) would carry their own personal chaplains in addition (in which case they paid the stipend out of their own pocket). Some chaplains took a somewhat unclerical attitude and there are instances of them weilding a cutlass in a boarding party or taking command of a ships boat.
I think that echos of this system still existed in 1914.

Hello All,

I realize that this is a bit of an obscure subject . I appreciate all of the input and thanks to all for this information.

By contrast, does anyone how the German Imperial Navy (which did not have the Royal Navy's centuries of tradition) handled the placement of and treatment of chaplains aboard their warships?

Regards,

Bucephalus

I have a copy.

THE SEA CHAPLAINS - A history of the Chaplains of the Royal Navy

Author: Rev. Gordon Taylor (RNVR Chaplain in WW2 and after)
Publisher: Oxford Illustrated Press (1978)
ISBN: 0 902280 36 2
603 pages

Appendix XII Lists the following Naval Chaplains Killed, Lost or Died 1914-19:

1914

Edward Gleedhall Uphill ROBSON - HMS ABOUKIR
Arthur Henry John PITT - HMS GOOD HOPE
George Hayton HEWETSON - HMS BULWARK

1915

George Brooke ROBINSON - HMS FORMIDABLE
Ivor Morgan LEWIS - HMS GOLIATH
Algernon Sidney Osborne SWEET - HMS NATAL

1916

George Anthony GREIG - HMS RUSSELL*
Cecil Wykeham LYDALL - HMS LION
Guy Arnott BROWNING - HMS INDEFATIGABLE
George Stanley KEWNEY - HMS QUEEN MARY
Cyril Ambrose WALTON - HMS CHESTER
Wallace La Patourel MACKENZIE - HMS DEFENCE
George William Faulconer MORGAN - HMS INVINCIBLE
William Farel WEBBER - HMS BLACK PRINCE
Henry Dixon WRIGHT - HMS BARHAM
Philip George ALEXANDER - HMS HAMPSHIRE

1917

Hatfield Athur William BACK - HMS VANGUARD

1918

William Lewis FORD - HMS SUFFOLK#

1919

Dermond Ross MILNER - HMS GARTH CASTLE

* in Malta

# in Vladivostock

Hope this helps

Dave

Naval Chaplains did not wear uniform until WWII. During WWI they had a special badge to wear on their Clerical Suit.

Bucephalus' title for this thread refers to chaplains 'aboard warships' so Audax's above remark is the relevant one here,
however, for the record, the chaplains in the Royal Naval Division wore the same uniform as that division's officers;
see Capt. Roy Swales book 'Nelson at War' which has a photograph of (the Presbyterian) Rev Robert Primrose

regards
Michael

Hello Michael

I think that the RND's chaplains were provided by the RAChD but I would be interested to learn whether any RN chaplains served with them, such as at Antwerp or Gallipoli, before the division [passed under War Office administrative control.

Ron

Ron,

The photograph to which I refer is pre-Gallipoli
so the RND were still under the Admiralty at that time

regards
Michael

Initially (Sep 1914) the Chaplain of the Fleet appointed a naval chaplain to each RND brigade and they all served at Antwerp and Gallipoli. Others were appointed later. The RND had at least eight naval chaplains while in the BEF.

Hi,

Chaplains in the Royal Navy were Commisioned Officers and under the orders of the Senior Officer present, he was also subject to the Naval Discipline Act. A Chaplain in the Royal Navy was an ordained priest in the Church of England, as far as I can find out they were the only denomination allowed to serve on a seagoing ship. The other denominations had Ministers in reciept of a fixed salary who were called 'Officiating Ministers' mostly at Base Ports and Naval Establishments, I cannot find reference to these Ministers being in the Rank and Command structure. (Kings Regulations and Admiralty Orders correct to Aug 1914).

Regards Charles

Good find, Charles. Thanks.

Regards,

Bucephalus

Re: Catholic priests at Jutland, I think someone's cocked up there. Father William Driscoll (not Driscol) couldn't have been present if attached to HMS "Natal" as that ship had blown up in harbour on 30 December, 1915. He is listed among the saved - incidentally he is listed as an officer though after all the Warrant Officers, as "Chaplain the Reverend William J. Driscoll (R.C.)." It would be interesting to know which ship he did serve in at Jutland, if indeed he was there.

Regards,
Simon

The following is from The Sea Chaplains (details above) in a passage dealing with the NATAL:

The Roman Catholic Chaplain who was also borne in the ship, William Driscoll, was not aboard at the time of the explosion, having gone ashore with a number of officers not long beforehand. The NATAL was Dricoll's first ship.

Dave