Hi Pals,

I was hoping someone out there might be able to help a Turkish colleague, and a sometime forum contributor.

I know that this thread could as easily go in the soldiers topic list or the one on POWs but I was hoping there might be an "Other Theatres" expert out there who could help.

Turkish historian Gursel Goncu recently come across a letter from the mother of a British soldier who was a prisoner of war in Turkey in 1917. This soldier, Private Frederick W Fuller of the 1/1st battalion of the Hereford Regiment, sadly died on June 11, 1917 and the letter, dated August 1, 1917 was never delivered.

The details listed by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission cite his home address as being The Firs, Tarrington, Herefordshire. His next of kin was given as Charles F Fuller, formerly of the village of Shobdan, also in Herefordshire.

However, the letter from Private Fuller’s mother gives a return address as being in Shobdon. Though hard to decipher, it appears to be:

Mrs Fuller
Shobdon
Ringeland
Herefordshire

I have found a memorial to Frederick Fuller, whose name was included on the Saint John the Evangelist’s Church, Shobdon, indicating that his family ties may have remained in that village.

Gursel was wondering if there were any members of the Fuller family remaining in either Tarrington or Shobdan as he would very much like to contact them to return the letter, as he feels it might be of interest to the family.

Any suggestions on how to trace any family members would be most helpful. I have written to the parish councils from both villages but sadly have got no reply.

It is likely that Fuller was captured at the first battle of Gaza in March 1917, though this is more speculation on the part of Gursel and myself rather than any firm evidence. Any information or pointers on Private Fuller, such as the date of his capture and where exactly in Turkey he died, would of course be very much appreciated.

Cheers
Bill

Hi Bill

The spelling is Shobdon, Kingsland. I live in Ludlow which is not far from Shobdon, my local paper may cover Shobdon, if not then Leominster one does. I could go and ask which paper cover the village, and get them to ask if any of their readers can help.

Annette

Hi Annette,

thanks for your kind offer of help, if it would be easier, just drop me a line with the names of the local papers and I could write to them direct so as to save you trouble.

Cheers
Bill

Bill
According to SDGW Frederick William Fuller was born in Port Talbot South Wales (b: 1898) and enlisted in London although resident in Kingsland. His father Charles was born in Camberwell, London and was a Domestic Coachman which may explain why he appears to have moved around quite often. In 1901 the family lived in Hill Croome St Mary, Worcestershire where Frederick's sister Daisy was born. She was 7 months old at the time of the 1901 census. Frederick's mother Mary Ann (probably nee Davies) was born in Kingsland, Herefordshire therefore I would check in that area for relatives.

Myrtle

P.S. I would be interested to hear how you get on as I would like to add information to my Herefordshire Regiment database.

Bill
It may be worth contacting Shobdon Village Stores that has a website including village news, history etc. Their email address is:

info@shobdonvillage.co.uk

Here's their website: SHOBDON VILLAGE STORES


Hopefully they may be able to spread the word about your search.

Myrtle

Just been through my database and have found that Pte Arthur Jones 236993 (very near in numbering to Pte Fuller) was also from Tarrington. Pte Jones who is also commemorated on the Bell Ringers' Roll of Honour for Tarrington Tower, is listed with next of kin as Thomas Jones a Domestic Gardener. It is possible that these two soldiers' fathers worked for the same family. I also wonder how Pte Fuller who joined up in London, was renumbered then found himself in service number proximity to another soldier from his village.
Myrtle

Hi Myrtle,

sorry for taking so long to reply, things have been somewhat hectic in Turkey the past few days.

Thank you so much for your messages and advice. I have written to the Shobdon Parish Council, though a site listed on the village store's site, but have not had any reply. More forthcoming was the curate of the church in Tarrington, who kindly searched the records and found details on Private Fuller's parents and sister. However, it seems as if none of the family remained in the village after 1928, though none are buried there either, having apparently moved on.

The curate in Tarrington even was kind enough to check out the address given for the Fullers, the house called the Firs, which still exists. Its aged resident, a gentleman in his eighties, could remember Daisy Fuller as being a teacher when he was young.

I am still trying to confirm Private Fuller was captured at the First Battle of Gaza, in March 1917, and the actual camp in Turey where he was sent. If you had any information on this side of the story, I would be most grateful.

All the best
Bill

Bill
I take it that you are thinking of the actions that occurred 27th March 1917 at Green Hill and Ali Muntar. The Herefordshire Regimental History states that 24 ORs were missing and 13 ORs were killed at this time. The men who were killed had service numbers between 235175 and 237039 although I may be slightly out with this as I have only found 12 Herefords on SDGW for this action. One of these twelve men appears on a Mid Wales Memorial that I am researching so I will keep an eye open for further information when I start researching his service in more detail.

Good to hear that the Tarrington curate has been so helpful. It may be worth sending Shobdon Village Stores an email. As it appears to be central to the community, the owners may be prepared to put a notice in their shop asking for information.

Myrtle

Hi all. I moved to Shobdon about 18 mnths ago and decided to do a bit of research on the names on the village war memorial ( there are just 6 ) one of which is Pte Fuller. I have a copy of his medal roll and SDGW info, but have not found any articles or announcements in the local papers of the time. I have been in contact with Gersul in Istanbul after I saw a request for information in the Hereford Times and am trying to do a bit of family Fuller tracing myself, for him. Then I picked up on this thread. Interesting to learn that Daisy was a teacher, that may help when tracking relatives. I had already put a request on the Shobdon Stores site for information but have had nothing about Fuller though did get a lot of help from a woman in Peteborough who was a relative of another of the names on the memorial, that of a GHC Evans. Geaneology wise, Fuller is rather common name so like all Family history research, luck and persistance play a big part. Lets hope between us we can help get this letter back to the family.

[quote name='Eceabat' date='Jul 22 2008, 08:25 AM' post='966160']
Hi Pals,

I was hoping someone out there might be able to help a Turkish colleague, and a sometime forum contributor.

I know that this thread could as easily go in the soldiers topic list or the one on POWs but I was hoping there might be an "Other Theatres" expert out there who could help.

Turkish historian Gursel Goncu recently come across a letter from the mother of a British soldier who was a prisoner of war in Turkey in 1917. This soldier, Private Frederick W Fuller of the 1/1st battalion of the Hereford Regiment, sadly died on June 11, 1917 and the letter, dated August 1, 1917 was never delivered."

Hi Eceabat,
I am currently working POWs in Turkey and am close to final. I do remember coming accross that name. But it may very well be someone else. I will go through my records once I finish work on the book ( a month or two). In the mean time, I wonder if it is possible for you to put me in tuch with Gursel Goncu. I wouldnt mind a photocopy of the letter for my resarch. Thanks for the help. ([email="gocyolu@yahoç.com"]gocyolu@yahoç.com[/email])
Regards

dont no if this should be here ,but in the uk i have a poem about the hereford regiment at suvla bay cost 1d cant remember all the words only first stick in my poor old brain
OVER THE MIGHTY OCEAN AT A PLACE CALLED SUVLA BAY THE HEREFORDSHIRE BOYS HAVE SHOWN THERE PLUCK THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY
anyone else got copy and can fill in the rest ?
barry

Hi Bill

If no one closer to him steps forward, then will I do?

Charles was my Gt, Gt Grandfather's brother so Fred would have been my something Uncle, so many times removed or something similar? Given the distance between the connection, I have yet to research him so, sadly am unable to help with datils of his death and capture.

Just moved house this weekend so cannot offer anymore info at the moment sorry. Hoping to have more time free'd up so will be on forum again soon with luck and a following wind ...

Back later

Hi Steve,

gotta love this forum. I have just spoken to Gursel and he will be in contact with you soon. Both he and I hare thrilled to have someone related to Fredrick Fuller. I have to say that the help we have had through the forum, and other avenues we have been following in trying to track down information on him has been wonderful.

From another source, the curate at the church in Tarrington, we received some great info, including the fact that an old gent living in the house where the family resided after the war still remembers, Charles, Mary and their daughter Daisy, who was his teacher for a time.

Bits and pieces keep coming together and Gursel hopes to be able to put the whole story together, or at least as much as can be collected, and I will post the findings on the forum after that.

To all who have contributed to this search, and to any and all who may add to it, I offer my heartfelt thanks.

Cheers
Bill

An amazing connection there.

For local newspapers, I would write to the Hereford Times. I believe it existed in 1914-1918 and is stil going strong today. You can find them by Googling.

Next time I go across to my wife's family in Hereford, I'll see if there is a memorial at or near Tarrington.

Update: seems there is: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/876890

Hi Chris,

Gursel has had a small piece run in the Hereford Times, and has had a bit of information come through that connection.

There is a memorial plaque carrying Private Fuller's name, in the church in the village of Shobdon, though no mention of him in Tarrington. His father got around a lot, being employed as a coachman, with the family having at various times lived in London, and in a number of the shires. Again, this information came from a number of sources, some here on the forum and other helpful souls.

Cheers
Bill

Excellent. Would you like a pic of the plaque?

Hi Chris,

most definitely Gursel and I would like to have a good picture of the plaque. I have a very blurred photo from a web site about Shobdon, but it is not of high quality.

The church where the plaque is located is Saint John the Evangelist’s Church, Shobdon. If any Pals could send me a better shot of the plaque, and maybe one of the exterior of the church itself, it would be much appreciated.

My regular e-mail address is: wsellars@usa.net

Again, thanks to all.

Cheers
Bill

Hi Bill I have a picture of, not the plaque that is on the church wall, but of the Roll of Honour that is kept in the vestry of the church. I took it a few months ago when I started to research the names. Will send you a copy. It was written up as the news of the casualities came in so is a very historic document. Sorry, but dont have a picture of the Church. The outside looks pretty ordinary but the inside is unique. If you dont get one from someone else I will go up and take one for you. Let me know.

Steve
Excellent news
Possibly cousin twice removed !
Myrtle

Correction
Possibly cousin thrice removed.
Myrtle

Many thanks to everybody -espescially Bill- who help to build the story.
A wonderful ccoperation. I hope to give back soon the letter to Steve and
find the other pieces of the stories.

gursel

Hi Myrtle
Have just re read your post of 31 July. You mention that there were actions at Green Hill and Ali Muntar on 27 March 1917. Out of interest, where are these 2 sites? Also if Fuller was taken prisoner where might he have been taken to? Could he have been wounded and susequently died or was it harsh treatment as a POW, what do you think ?
I know very little about this front and really ought to gen myself up a bit. Your help would be much appreciated.

Gordon
Ali Muntar was a ridge east of Gaza. Both Ai Muntar and Green Hill are mentioned in the Herefordshire Regiment history but it doesn't mention where Green Hill was situated. There were cactus hedges on the same side of Gaza as Ali Muntar that may have some connection with Green Hill. I haven't researched where pows were taken at that time so do not have any information regarding Turkish pow camps. Although not completely reliable SDGW lists Pte Fuller as having "Died" which makes me think that Pte Fuller didn't dow but possibly died from disease.
Myrtle

Many thanks Myrtle. If you come across any info that may help me fill in the details of Pte Fuller I would love to know.
When I have compiled as much as I can about the names on our memorial I want to have it put in our local magazine. That way I can help keep the memory of these guys alive.

quote: Ali Muntar was a ridge east of Gaza. Both Ai Muntar and Green Hill are mentioned in the Herefordshire Regiment history but it doesn't mention where Green Hill was situated. There were cactus hedges on the same side of Gaza as Ali Muntar that may have some connection with Green Hill.

Myrtle & Gordon,

the map below is from the British OH and it shows Ali el Muntar, Green Hill and a feature called the Cactus Garden



I hope that the map will be of help and I also thought that you might be interested in the photograph of British prisoners captured at 1st Gaza
The photograph is from a collection in the LoC (USA)



regards
Michael

Michael
Thank you for posting the map and excellent photograph.

Gordon
I had a quick look at the Hereford Times 1917 today but could not find any mention of Pte Fuller amongst the men killed, wounded or captured at 1st Gaza.

Myrtle

Michael
I echo Myrtle's comments. Many thanks for the fine map and the photo. I wonder if Fuller is one of them?

Myrtle

I too looked in the Hereford Times and found nothing. The Leominster Journal drew a blank as well.

Gordon
I'm starting to wonder if Pte Fuller was captured during the second battle of Gaza.
Myrtle

Myrtle
I must admit that when I looked in the Hereford Times and the Leominster Journal I only looked for an announcement relating to his death ie around the period from June 1917. I didnt look for anything before then because I had no idea he may have been captured, I just assumed he was KIA in June. If I can get down to Leominster Library soon I will look up dates nearer to the actions. Having said that, when was the 2nd battle of Gaza ?

Gordon
The Herefordshire involvement in Gaza II was from 19th April 1917 until they were relieved on 18th August by 7th RWF. As I only looked very quickly at the First Gaza details, it may be worth you checking the casualty lists from March 1917 until July 1917 to see if Private Fuller is mentioned for either Gaza I or II. There is a First Gaza list published in the 14th April edition but there are also other paragraphs in later weeks that mention individual soldiers.
Myrtle

Thanks for the info myrtle, will try to get down there within the next week- 10 days.

PS Have been to see the Rhayader memorial. It is very impressive, but often wonder how long it can last whole in view of the size of lorries that negotiate that crossroads. It would be a great shame if it got damaged or, worse, destroyed. Moving it would perhaps be sensible, but it would destroy the character of the town, dont you think?

Gordon
I agree with you that Rhayader Clock Tower provides character to the centre of the town and I think that it would be a shame if the memorial is moved away from its original site which was previously that of the market hall. There has been talk of a Rhayader bypass since Beeching recommended the closure of the local railway but meanwhile the juggernaut drivers demonstrate their skills when negotiating the narrow streets and crossroads and, bell shaped iron bollards, around the base of the memorial, protect the main structure from knocks.
Myrtle

Gordon
Another thought. The letter that Pte Fuller's mother sent to her son was dated 1st August 1917 therefore if the family didn't know at that time that he had died on 11th June the news of his death wouldn't have appeared in the newspaper until after August 1st.
Myrtle

Myrtle
Good thinking. That will save me a bit of time. I'm not sure if Leominster library has copies or micro-fiche of the Hereford
Times as well as the Leominster Journal if not a trip into Hereford will be done as well. Do you know of any other local newspapers running at that time, that are now defunct? It might help my researches into the other names on the Shobdon memorial.
Gordon

Gordon
I tend to rely on the Hereford Times when researching the Herefords. The Hereford Record Office should know the names of the other local newspapers that were published at that time.
Will you please post the names of the men commemorated on the Shobdon Memorial. I have a particular interest in the area as my grandmother was born in Shobdon and lived for many years in Weobley before she moved to Wales.

Myrtle

Hello Myrtle
There are 6 names on the memorial. They are
A.Lilwall 2nd Monmouths 24/6/1915
T.Williams

Hello Myrtle
There are 6 names on the memorial. They are
A.Lilwall 2nd Monmouths 24/6/1915
T.Williams KSLI 11/2/1916
A.Ingram London Rifles 27/6/1916
J.Vaughan 11th Borderers 11/2/1917
FW Fuller Hereford Reg 11/6/1917
GHC Evans 1/5 West Yorks 25/3/1918
If you can add anything to the story of these men I will be very grateful. I have bits and pieces of info on all of them, if you want to know any of it more than happy to share.

Gordon

Gordon
Thank you for the list of names. Pte John Vaughan was Private 4603 Herefordshire Regiment prior to being transferred to the KSLI (20620) and then the 11th Border Regiment. He was one of approx.50 soldiers who were transferred to the 11th Borders from the Herefords via the KSLI.
Myrtle

Thanks for the info Myrtle.
I have details of him from the Hereford Times.
On the 24 March 1917 it was announced that he had been wounded, though it didnt say where.
Then on the 31st it was announced that he had died.

In the Hereford Times of the 1st April 1916 it had him joining the Herefordshire Regiment, giving the info that he was Farm Labourer of Lady Court, Shobdon. Where that is, I havent found out yet.
One man I am struggling with is TW Williams of the KSLI. I have the basic info (CWGC etc ) but no back up info from newspapers or the like. His surname Williams doesnt help of course, millions of them !!

Gordon

giving the info that he was Farm Labourer of Lady Court, Shobdon. Where that is, I havent found out yet.

Gordon
Ladycourt was a farm one mile east of Shobdon.
Thanks for the extra information.
Myrtle

Gordon
I believe that Thomas Williams is listed in The Hereford Times 24th October 1914 as having enlisted for overseas service. His place of origin is given as Leinthall the same as his place of birth on SDGW. He was born in Leinthall Starkes and is listed on the 1901 census as 5 years old and staying with his uncle Elias Williams, Aunt Mary Williams and various relatives such as cousins and second cousins. His uncle is listed as occupation: Gardener not domestic.
Do you have the SDGW details?

Myrtle

Myrtle
Thanks for the info about Ladycourt Farm. If it was about 1ml east, is it now the farm shown now as Lower Ledicot Farm On the map or does it now no longer exist at all. Ledicot Lane is an old name i know but Ledicot and Ladycourt have similarities dont they. Or am I in the wrong place entirely ?

SDGW info for Williams is
Thomas William Williams
born Leinthall Herefords
enlisted Hereford ( Shobdon, Kingsland Hereford )
No. 10732
L/Cpl
Killed in Action
France/Flanders 11/2/1916

Thanks Gordon for the SDGW details. I should have explained that I have the details but wondered if you needed them.

I have just tried to find my old map of Herefordshire and failed. It seems to have walked. I am not sure about Ladycourt being the same as Ledicot but as there was also a Lower Ladycourt Farm it is possible that it could be the same place as that now called Lower Ledicot. I will have another search for my old map tomorrow.
Myrtle

Hi to all who have contributed to this thread.

Sorry I have been rather off the scope of late, but I have been far too busy for my own liking recently. It is great to see the discussion expanding and more information coming out on Private Fuller and the other men of the region who served and fell. I know I have a few private e-mails to respond to stemming from this thread, rest assured I will get around to it.

In the meantime, thanks again to all who have added to this thread and given of their time and knowledge.

Cheers
Bill

Myrtle
I have a bit of a health problem at the moment so wont be able to get to Hereford or Leominster libraries as soon as hoped, will get to them soon though, havent forgotten.
Gordon

Gordon
Hope you feel better soon.
I have searched for my old Herefordshire map and can not find it. Pulled all the books out of the bookcase and am now wondering where it has gone.
I will keep looking.

Myrtle

Myrtle
Thanks for the good wishes. Got down to Hereford yesterday and searched the 1917 Hereford Times. Found an announcement on Sat. 12 May headed " Prisoners in Turkish Hands " listing Pte F W Fuller 236995 Hereford Reg.

However we looked right through to the end of 1917 and did not find any announcement of his death. We ran out of time then. I guess it is possible that it might have been made in 1918, what do you think ? Have not been to Leominster yet to look at the Leominster Journal, hope to do that one day next week.

Also, I spoke to a local here in Shobdon who thinks that Ladycourt and Ledicott are one and the same. I might ask in Leominster Library if they have any old maps of the area and see if I can clear this up. Will let you know.

Regards
Gordon

Gordon
Good to hear that you have found the announcement. If you have the time to check the 1918 newspapers for an announcement of Pte. Fuller's death it would be worth doing. I have been unable to find my old Herefordshire map so if you are visiting Leominster library it would also be worth checking if Ladycourt and Ledicott are the same.
Myrtle

Hello Myrtle
Got down to Leominster Library and looked through the Journal for Aug 17 to end of 1917 and all of 1918 but still unable to find any death announcement for Fuller. As usual ran out of time and eyes were blurring. Did not have time to look for old maps so will have to defer that for another day. I did contact the CWGC for any info re Fuller so maybe, when they get back it will throw some light on whether there was some reason his death wasnt announced at the time or if the info was missd from the press release. Any ideas yourself ?

Gordon

Hello Gordon
The only thought I have about Pte Fuller's death not being announced by 1918 is that the authorities had not received confirmation that he had died until more than a year later. I researched an officer who was eventually announced as having been KiA during 1915 at Gallipoli whose file at the NA contained many letters from his family and the War Department. There were letters relaying the news that the soldier was missing in action and then that he had died and then that he had survived and was in a pow camp. In this case it was reported that his name appeared on an American list but then it was found that it referred to a different man.
Eventually a couple of years later the soldier's family had to accept that their son and brother had been killed in action.

Myrtle

At long last have had a reply from the CWGC about Fuller, though as expected they know nothing and refer me to the Hereford Regimental museum and the National Archives. I thougt the CWGC were digitising all their records, any ideas about this and when it is due to be completed ?
Gordon
ps not been able to get to Hereford to do any more searching lately, will try again as soon as I can.