I have chanced upon a letter from the CO of the South Wales Borderers commenting on copies of 2 chapters of what I assume is Military Operations: Gallipoli (or perhaps a pre-publication draft of it) which had been sent to him by Aspinall-Oglander. He writes back to Aspinall-Oglander commenting specifically on the attack on Scimitar Hill on 21 August 1915.

The letter is from Col A E Williams of the SWB and is dated 27 May, 1931. The 2 capters sent to him were Chapters XXIX and XXX (with a point of specific interest on pages 20 to 21). However, the published OH coverage of the events at Scimitar Hill is in Chapter XXV, pages 345ff.

Is one to assume Col Williams had been sent a typescript draft which was subsequently amended with page numbers changed by the printers? If so, does this draft still exist as it clearly contains more information than in the published version?

John

Such material will be in:

CAB 45/241 Letters, comments and personal accounts: Authors A - D 1917-1931
CAB 45/242 Letters, comments and personal accounts: Authors E - J 1920-1932
CAB 45/243 Letters, comments and personal accounts: Authors K - O 1923-1935
CAB 45/244 Letters, comments and personal accounts: Authors P - S 1929-1931
CAB 45/245 Letters, comments and personal accounts: Authors T - Y 1929-1931

I believe it was the normal procedure to send draft copies to officers involved in the operation in question, certainly to brigade commander level and I'm sure often to battalion commander. Andrew Green's Writing the Great War has a chapter on the writing of the volumes covering Gallipoli.

Regards

Ali

I'd just say I've read a few of the surviving files for the 1915 OH on Loos and they are a gold mine.....certainly info in them that is interesting but didn't make it into the OH.....I guess space was one consideration....also written fairly soon after the events - 10 years or so.....certainly worth a look if you are in the NA.....

Many thanks for your response. Are the 'surviving files' you referred to in the CAB 45 series mentioned by Bill?

Bill - Thanks for your response too. Do the files with the letters in CAB 45/241 -5 also contain the draft texts for the OH or just the comments from unit commanding officers?

Thanks to Ali also for the book reference - I'll chase that one up

John

John,

They contain a host of things: annotated replies, personal recollections, line by line notes, etc., depending on the person writing in reply. There are officers from all levels from relatively junior (sub CO) to Army, Staff and GHQ. I have not come across the original drafts though unless someone sends them back in with comments appended (not often in my experience of the Somme files). As Niall says, though, they are a goldmine though, as ever, there is a more than an element of hindsight, record straightening, excuse making, etc., so everything needs to be read with caution.

B

Thanks for all of that, Bill. Sounds like good advice.

John

Hi John,

There's also a series of papers held by the Australian War Memorial that relate to drafts sent to Charles Bean and senior Australian officers. The OH caused quite a stir here with its criticism of Australian soldiers at Gallipoli. Here's the summary of one section:

[Official History, 1914-18 War: Records of Charles E W Bean, Official Historian:] Correspondence, 1926-31; covers the British official history of the Gallipoli campaign, including comments on the draft by Bean and various senior Australian officers, the alleged libel of Anzac troops and Sir James Edmonds' comments on Australian criticism; correspondents include Bean, T H E Heyes, J L Treloar, the Department of Defence, A W Bazley, A G Butler, the Committee of Imperial Defence, Brig Gen C F Aspinall-Oglander, Sir Thomas Blamey, Sir John Gellibrand, the "Daily Guardian", Sir William Glasgow, The "Sydney Morning Herald", Sir James Edmonds, Sir John Monash, Brig Gen T W Griffiths, the Dominions Office, Harry Chauvel, Sir Nevill Smyth VC, Maj Gen F G Hughes, Maj Gen J M Antill and Brig Gen J H Cannan.

The Series No is AWM38 and the Control Symbols are 3DRL 7953/27 (Parts 1, 2 and 3) and 3DRL 7953/28.

Cheers,

Mat

Might be worth looking at Brigade diary files. 33rd Brigade has notes from the Brigadier attached with sketch maps showing his recollections. He also added some 'tasty' text about the operation.
sm

I have come across some of the copies sent out for comments, they are always very interesting, and for some of the volumes had over a 1,000 issued. You might want to check Woolwich which bought a while back some of the papers relating to the maps by Becke

I would just like to say a word of thanks for those latest contributions. Researching without guidance and recommendations can be a bit daunting sometimes, and feedback of that sort with new (for me) information is absolutely invaluable. I will certainly be following up as suggested.

Steve, I have a question: Are you referring to brigade war diaries (i.e. likely to be in the NA) or diaries which are to be found in a military museum?

Thanks again
John

Yes - Brigade War diaries. 33rd Bde has notes from the Commanding General attached giving his memories of what happened and why it went wrong.
s

There is a a quantity of A-O correspondence in the Isle of Wight County Record Office, as a lot of the work was done here on the IOW. I gather it might be even more scathing of the Australians, than that which was released. Also a very interesting exchange of letters with a German officer. I have only looked at the material relevant to the IOW Rifles (8th Hants).

Gareth

Once again, I am most grateful for those suggestions. Following up all of that should keep me out of mischief for a while.

John

Hi John

I do not think that this adds anything, but I have a copy af a reply from my Great Uncle to General Aspinall-Oglander. In the letter he broadly agrees with the General's analysis in the draft he was sent (action of 15-16 Aug 1915 at Kiretch Tepe). My Gt Uncle was only a Captain at the time of the Gallipoli Campaign, yet still received the General's draft for comment. He was invalided out with dysentery and did not rejoin his unit until 1917 (1/11th London, F S Hammond). Tantalisingly, he refers in the letter to his war diaries which the General appears to have seen. These were not found in my Uncle's papers after his death, and may be in some depositary/archive, but no luck searching so far. If anyone has any idea, would be grateful for any further help.

Best wishes, Jim

I have a copy of "A Brief History of the Canakkle Campaign in the First World War) (June 1914 to January 1916)" printed by The Turkish General Staff Printing House. If anyone would like a copy on a CD contact me off Forum at:- johnareed60@hotmail.com but give me some time as I'm off the Belgium on Monday for two weeks.


John

I have mentioned the book Writing the Great War: Sir James Edmonds and the Official Histories 1915 - 1948 by Andrew Green, London 2003 in another thread but, because two entire chapters are devoted to Aspinall's work, it should also be of interest to contributors to this thread. Every twist and turn of the entire controversial production of these particular volumes is covered: well worth reading.

Jack

Jim, John and Jack

Thanks for breathing new life into this topic as I have made very little progress with running the draft chapters to earth in the interim (only a printers proof), nor the maps and sketches that were sent with comments by the recipients to A-O. The maps and sketches have been detached from the letters in CAB 45/241ff unless the sketches were drawn on the same notepaper as the letter. I have looked at other files in TNA (though possibly not exhaustively), I have looked in the Firepower archives at Woolwich in case the maps were handed to Becke and also in the IoW Record Office. No result! It has been suggested that the draft chapters were scrapped and the maps went to a dealer or collector.

Jack - I have read the Andrew Green book as result of your recommendation and although as you say it is interesting in its own right, it unfortunately throws no light on the fate of these documents and maps, nor is there any reference to them in his bibliography. I have been meaning to write to Andrew Green as this question must have raised itself in his mind when he was researching the book, but I cannot find an address for him (and writing to publishers is usually unproductive). Que sera.

John - I am emailing you as I would be eager to see the Brief History.

John

John

Although it is a brief history it runs to approx 350 pages including maps and photographs, I hope you ejoy it. The CD is in the post.

John