Hi Pals,
This is the thread I hoped I would never have to open. Over the past week, Turkish bulldozers have cleared soil and undergrowth to a width of up the three metres and to a depth of up to one metre either side of the road running along the Second Ridge in the Anzac sector.
As a result of this, large quantities of human remains have been unearthed and then removed by Turkish officials. There has been no attempt to preserve, identify or even find out whether they are the remains of Allied or Turkish soldiers. Relics from the campaign have been destroyed and parts of trenches filled in with rubble or ploughed through.
I have been told by senior Australian officials that they had no prior knowledge of this work and had in fact been categorically told that no excavation work would take place in this region as part of Turkish work to put a layer of new asphalt on the existing road bed.
So, three years after an Australian Senate inquiry found road works at Anzac Cove had caused serious damage to historical sites on the iconic World War 1 battlefield, Turkish bulldozers have again ploughed their way through the heritage shared by Turkey, Australia, New Zealand and the UK. Again, truck loads of spoil from the excavations have been removed.
The Turkish authorities are also carrying out a massive project near the head of Gully Ravine, putting new car parks and memorials on top of Fusilier Bluff that will cover 10,000 square metres. Again, traces from the campaign, including two mine craters, are to be destroyed.
I did a television interview for Australian state television today, tried to put the put the case why this site was important and why it should be left untouched. Soon after filming this, Turkish paramilitary Gendarmes arrived and demanded the tape be handed over by the crew. That didn't happen but filming stopped.
I have just been told that a full page article in Turkey's leading daily paper, including input from Turkish historians Sahin Aldogan, Haluk Oral and myself, detailing what has happened at ANZAC and Gully Ravine has just been pulled. No reason given.
As I write this, I have also just been told by a Turkish friend who was out near Lone Pine and who had also been interviewed for the Australian TV piece, that where a large quantity of human remains had been found there are now National Park workers digging feverishly, uncovering yet more remains to be hidden from prying press eyes. The work was being overseen by the Park director himself, who abused my friend for being a traitor and helping foreigners.
Australian officials were informed of this situation last Monday and did apparently manage to have the work halted Wednesday. By this time, the graders had cut through an area running from below Pine Ridge to 400 metres short of Chunuk Bair. For those who have never been here, that is far more than the area of the old front lines. The CWGC was also immediately informed of the human remains that were found and their location, though as I said, this site is now being cleared.
Three and a half years ago, in the wake of the Anzac Cove road fiasco, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and the prime ministers of Australia and New Zealand agreed to set up a committee of historians and archaeologists to conduct a complete survey of the Ariburnu battlefields. It was also agreed that no major work would be done till this committee completed its study.
That committee has not yet started its work. While Australia named its representatives to the committee in 2005, Turkish officials appear to have little interest and Australia officials have told me Turkey has repeatedly stalled the plan. And the digging goes on.
So many people have tried to raise awareness as to the issues of battlefield preservation and careful planning and even the need for battlefields archaeology here in Turkey, with absolutely no success at all. I really felt we may have achieved something in 2005, how wrong I was.
Bill Sellars
Full Version: Turkey digging in at Gallipoli... again
For what it is worth, I am posting a couple of photos. One is of Krimizi Sirt, the Turkish side of Johnstone's Jolly, while the second is a view looking down from Baby 700. As can be see, the work carried out will really, really improve traffic flow and safety, the justification given by Turkish authorities for the excavations.
I am reading this just before going to bed, and am so dumbfounded I am not sure I can express what I feel in coherent and diplomatic words.
The most distressing aspect of all of this seems to be the cavalier manner in which this is happening, when there is supposed to be mutual respect and respect for those who died on the Gallipoli peninsula battlefields. This is not honouring the memories of our ancestors or leaving our sons safe in the arms of another country. I had better stop.
Thank you Bill for alerting us to what is happening.
Shirley
edited
The most distressing aspect of all of this seems to be the cavalier manner in which this is happening, when there is supposed to be mutual respect and respect for those who died on the Gallipoli peninsula battlefields. This is not honouring the memories of our ancestors or leaving our sons safe in the arms of another country. I had better stop.
Thank you Bill for alerting us to what is happening.
Shirley
edited
Bill, this is very sad news indeed.
After visiting such a beautifully preserved area only a few weeks ago, I am saddened to hear what is going on.
Although after seeing human remains on show in Museums, I was doubtful as to whether the Turks really bothered about the battlefield or the dead.
steve m
Although after seeing human remains on show in Museums, I was doubtful as to whether the Turks really bothered about the battlefield or the dead.
steve m
I have seen this as well. Obviously a traffic control measure.
It appears that 100's of coaches descend on the peninsula in the holiday period and the new road is designed to help traffic flow.
It appears that 100's of coaches descend on the peninsula in the holiday period and the new road is designed to help traffic flow.
"I have seen this as well. Obviously a traffic control measure.
It appears that 100's of coaches descend on the peninsula in the holiday period and the new road is designed to help traffic flow."
I can't say this is really the case. The newly laid asphalt follows the exact line of the old road. It is in no way wider. The damage was done some weeks after the asphalt was laid. The clearing of the undergrowth and the digging on either side of the road does not improve traffic control unless fear of falling off the road itself into a ditch up to a metre deep can control speeding vehicles.
In fact, in some ways the road is now even less safe than before. Previously, there was a verge in many areas where vehicles could pull over to when visitors wanted to stop and visit a particular cemetery or memorial. This verge no longer exists, except in that road workers have piled some rubble at the edge of some areas of the road and covered it with loose gravel into which a vehicle's wheel and even a boot will sink.
When the new asphalt was laid, it was done in a series of layers, raising the actual road bed by up to 60 centimetres (yes, I measured it) from the old level. Added to the deep grading at either side of the road and any vehicle that strays too far from the edge risks toppling over.
This indeed happened two weeks ago in the Soganlidere region, where the Dardanelles road turns inland below the village of Kilitbahir. A fully laden bus, carrying families of Turkish defence force personnel, slid to the edge of the road and rolled over on its side. Twenty-seven people needed medical attention, with 14 of them being hospitalised, at least two in a serious condition. The road at Soganlidere has recently been relaid with additional asphalt, raising its level above that of the old road bed. In the past six months there have been at least two other instances of buses sliding off the road and rolling due to the high level of the road. I should say that the raising of the road level on Second Ridge is more extreme than in any other area of the peninsula that I have seen.
It should also be remembered that the road on Second Ridge is limited to one way traffic, and has been so for a number of years. As such, the road did not need widening, just repairing.
I cannot see how making a road more dangerous can improve traffic management. Even more, I cannot see how digging wide trenches either side of the road, damaging historically important sites, and disinterring the remains of those who fell in this area, can improve the understanding of the campaign or how its shows respect to the fallen.
A couple of hours ago, I was informed by a very reliable witness that the remains of at least three soldiers had been dug up and removed from a site some 50 metres from the Long Pine Cemetery. This total was reached by counting skulls. Those remains were removed by road workers, under instruction from a senior National Park official, not an archaeologist in sight. The final low point was that the remains were loaded into a large plastic garbage bag.
I could say that it can't get worse than that, but long and sad experience has proved me wrong in the past.
Bill
PS, Burlington. Sorry if this reply seems terse, it has been a truly bloody awful day.
It appears that 100's of coaches descend on the peninsula in the holiday period and the new road is designed to help traffic flow."
I can't say this is really the case. The newly laid asphalt follows the exact line of the old road. It is in no way wider. The damage was done some weeks after the asphalt was laid. The clearing of the undergrowth and the digging on either side of the road does not improve traffic control unless fear of falling off the road itself into a ditch up to a metre deep can control speeding vehicles.
In fact, in some ways the road is now even less safe than before. Previously, there was a verge in many areas where vehicles could pull over to when visitors wanted to stop and visit a particular cemetery or memorial. This verge no longer exists, except in that road workers have piled some rubble at the edge of some areas of the road and covered it with loose gravel into which a vehicle's wheel and even a boot will sink.
When the new asphalt was laid, it was done in a series of layers, raising the actual road bed by up to 60 centimetres (yes, I measured it) from the old level. Added to the deep grading at either side of the road and any vehicle that strays too far from the edge risks toppling over.
This indeed happened two weeks ago in the Soganlidere region, where the Dardanelles road turns inland below the village of Kilitbahir. A fully laden bus, carrying families of Turkish defence force personnel, slid to the edge of the road and rolled over on its side. Twenty-seven people needed medical attention, with 14 of them being hospitalised, at least two in a serious condition. The road at Soganlidere has recently been relaid with additional asphalt, raising its level above that of the old road bed. In the past six months there have been at least two other instances of buses sliding off the road and rolling due to the high level of the road. I should say that the raising of the road level on Second Ridge is more extreme than in any other area of the peninsula that I have seen.
It should also be remembered that the road on Second Ridge is limited to one way traffic, and has been so for a number of years. As such, the road did not need widening, just repairing.
I cannot see how making a road more dangerous can improve traffic management. Even more, I cannot see how digging wide trenches either side of the road, damaging historically important sites, and disinterring the remains of those who fell in this area, can improve the understanding of the campaign or how its shows respect to the fallen.
A couple of hours ago, I was informed by a very reliable witness that the remains of at least three soldiers had been dug up and removed from a site some 50 metres from the Long Pine Cemetery. This total was reached by counting skulls. Those remains were removed by road workers, under instruction from a senior National Park official, not an archaeologist in sight. The final low point was that the remains were loaded into a large plastic garbage bag.
I could say that it can't get worse than that, but long and sad experience has proved me wrong in the past.
Bill
PS, Burlington. Sorry if this reply seems terse, it has been a truly bloody awful day.
Don't worry Bill.
I only go by what I was told on site.
Have a better day tomorrow!
Martin
I only go by what I was told on site.
Have a better day tomorrow!
Martin
This is terrible Bill. Thanks for keeping us informed as I haven't heard anything in the media over here yet.
Regards
Andrew
Regards
Andrew
Heard you on ABC radio's AM program this morning, Bill. Bad news indeed. Thanks for your fight to protect the integrity of the battlefields - more power to you.
Grant
Grant
Thanks for the info Bill - I'm still totally stunned that this could be allowed to happen AGAIN. I've emailed you privately.
Heard you speaking to Neil Mitchell on the radio - nicely done.
Cheers,
Tim.
Heard you speaking to Neil Mitchell on the radio - nicely done.
Cheers,
Tim.
Well done on the heads up Bill ...
One would have thought that after the last time they would have been aware of the fallout.
I am sent emails to everyone in my address book ... the more people that know the more power our voice gains.
Lest We Forget!!!
One would have thought that after the last time they would have been aware of the fallout.
I am sent emails to everyone in my address book ... the more people that know the more power our voice gains.
Lest We Forget!!!
Just a note from the sidelines of the debate over the road issue at Second Ridge.
Turkey’s ambassador to Australia, Murat Ersavci, told Australian media on Monday that he had spoken to the governor of Canakkale province who told him there were no new roadworks, just dangerous potholes being repaired.
Funny that, given on Monday Turkey’s largest daily newspaper quoted the said same governor as saying a full four kilometers of asphalt had been laid on the road leading to Chunuk Bair.
The ambassador went on to say: "There are definitely no new roadworks in the area at all. Somebody has been digging at the side of the road, digging things up. Somebody is trying to provoke this."
Well, wrong on count one but he was on the money when he said someone “has been digging at the side of the road, digging things up”. Whoever that person or persons were happened to be using graders belonging to the Turkish State Road Authority. Rules me out then, I can’t drive.
As to “Somebody is trying to provoke this” if the ambassador means telling the truth about the situation I’ll cop to that one, but the blame should be spread around, with three Turkish historians, Sahin Aldogan, Gursel Goncu and Haluk Oral roundly condemning the damage done on Second Ridge in an article in a national daily newspaper here in Turkey.
The ambassador also said “I feel really offended when somebody comes up and says these Turks don't know history”. If the ambassador meant “these” Turks as in the Turkish people he is reading into statements meaning that is not there. However, if by saying “these Turks don't know history” he means the Turkish state officials who planned and oversaw the excavation work on Second Ridge, something in direct contravention of an agreement with the Turkish and Australian governments, he has hit the nail on the head.
In the interview the ambassador said his great uncle was killed at Gallipoli. Maybe before dismissing out of hand the reports of damage to the area and defending the work with false statements, maybe he should be wondering if it was his great uncle who was disinterred by Turkish graders.
Bill
Turkey’s ambassador to Australia, Murat Ersavci, told Australian media on Monday that he had spoken to the governor of Canakkale province who told him there were no new roadworks, just dangerous potholes being repaired.
Funny that, given on Monday Turkey’s largest daily newspaper quoted the said same governor as saying a full four kilometers of asphalt had been laid on the road leading to Chunuk Bair.
The ambassador went on to say: "There are definitely no new roadworks in the area at all. Somebody has been digging at the side of the road, digging things up. Somebody is trying to provoke this."
Well, wrong on count one but he was on the money when he said someone “has been digging at the side of the road, digging things up”. Whoever that person or persons were happened to be using graders belonging to the Turkish State Road Authority. Rules me out then, I can’t drive.
As to “Somebody is trying to provoke this” if the ambassador means telling the truth about the situation I’ll cop to that one, but the blame should be spread around, with three Turkish historians, Sahin Aldogan, Gursel Goncu and Haluk Oral roundly condemning the damage done on Second Ridge in an article in a national daily newspaper here in Turkey.
The ambassador also said “I feel really offended when somebody comes up and says these Turks don't know history”. If the ambassador meant “these” Turks as in the Turkish people he is reading into statements meaning that is not there. However, if by saying “these Turks don't know history” he means the Turkish state officials who planned and oversaw the excavation work on Second Ridge, something in direct contravention of an agreement with the Turkish and Australian governments, he has hit the nail on the head.
In the interview the ambassador said his great uncle was killed at Gallipoli. Maybe before dismissing out of hand the reports of damage to the area and defending the work with false statements, maybe he should be wondering if it was his great uncle who was disinterred by Turkish graders.
Bill
His words, mate, are a bit like a certain head of a certain club over here, trying to down play the destruction!
Thankfully, there are some in Turkey who are standing up and bringing us the news, some who dare the government's wrath!
What ever happened to the agreement that the remains would be honoured?
The remains, no matter what nationality.
Attaturks words have been shamed by the present Turkish authorities who have allowed this to happen!
Those heroes that shed their blood And lost their lives...
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore, rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies
And the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side,
Here in this country of ours.
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries...
Wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now lying in our bosom
And are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land, they have
Become our sons as well.
It seems that the tourism dollar is stronger than the promise of Attaturk, he that the Turkish tourists flock to pay homage to, on the Gallipoli Penisular.
Attaturk must be turning in his grave at the betrayal of his words.
Kim
Thankfully, there are some in Turkey who are standing up and bringing us the news, some who dare the government's wrath!
What ever happened to the agreement that the remains would be honoured?
The remains, no matter what nationality.
Attaturks words have been shamed by the present Turkish authorities who have allowed this to happen!
Those heroes that shed their blood And lost their lives...
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore, rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies
And the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side,
Here in this country of ours.
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries...
Wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now lying in our bosom
And are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land, they have
Become our sons as well.
It seems that the tourism dollar is stronger than the promise of Attaturk, he that the Turkish tourists flock to pay homage to, on the Gallipoli Penisular.
Attaturk must be turning in his grave at the betrayal of his words.
Kim
Bill
if there is anything I can do to help from here in Blighty do let me know
Just make sure you & the Mrs take care
Chris
if there is anything I can do to help from here in Blighty do let me know
Just make sure you & the Mrs take care
Chris
Thanks for your detailed report Bill. It makes very sad reading.
Make sure you and Sahin, your wife, and the others take care of yourselves.
Best regards,
Jonathan S
Make sure you and Sahin, your wife, and the others take care of yourselves.
Best regards,
Jonathan S
This is really,I dunno what to say.S*it!
I cant believe they'd do this when its probably meant to improve the tourist traps & that those same tourists may have had their own folks bulldozed out or over.
It speaks volumes that the gits who ordered this have since lied about what they are actually doing & that they are defiling (my word) Turkish remains too!
Bunch of ****** **** ** *** **** *****
I cant believe they'd do this when its probably meant to improve the tourist traps & that those same tourists may have had their own folks bulldozed out or over.
It speaks volumes that the gits who ordered this have since lied about what they are actually doing & that they are defiling (my word) Turkish remains too!
Bunch of ****** **** ** *** **** *****
Political Section:
Address: Turkish Embassy, 43 Belgrave Square, London, SW1X 8PA
Telephone: 020 7393 0202 - Fax: 020 7393 0066
Email: turkish.emb@btclick.com
Should anyone like to contact the Turkish embassy over this matter the details are above
Chris
Address: Turkish Embassy, 43 Belgrave Square, London, SW1X 8PA
Telephone: 020 7393 0202 - Fax: 020 7393 0066
Email: turkish.emb@btclick.com
Should anyone like to contact the Turkish embassy over this matter the details are above
Chris
If enough people care and act, we can get this sort of thing stopped. The legacy of the sacrifice of those in WW1 is that we can have our democratic say which is why in addition to proudly being a member of this forum, I am also an active supporter of Amnesty International.
Amnesty encourage people to write letters to the appropriate authorities in cases of human rights abuse and as Chris suggests above this is one way in which we can attempt to bring about change with regard to recent upsetting events in the Gallipoli peninsula. Letter writing can be extremely effective e.g. the recent stay of execution of Troy Davis in USA – no offence intended to those in USA by the way.
I would suggest (in the case of those living in UK) writing to the Turkish Ambassador in London and the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Ankara. The details are:
His Excellency Mr Mehmet Yigit Alpogan, The Ambassador of Turkey
Embassy of the Republic of Turkey
43 Belgrave Square
LONDON
SW1X 8PA
[Form of address in the letter: either Excellency or Dear Mr Ambassador]
Mr Ali Babacan
Minister of Foreign Affairs
Republic of Turkey Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Balgat
ANKARA
Turkey 06100
[Form of address in the letter: Dear Mr Babacan]
It would be presumptuous for me to lay down the content of this letter, but as a suggestion for those with no prior experience in such matters:
Be courteous no matter how incensed you feel
Write in your normal style – no high flown language necessary
Try to avoid being long winded
The format usually followed is three paragraphs:
• State the problem (ample information here from Bill’s postings)
• State why it affects you (e.g. ‘I am a former serving officer in HM Forces with a father who fought in Gallipoli in 1915. He had a very high regard for his Turkish opponents and I feel strongly that the remains of the fallen on both side should not be treated in this way…..’)
• Say what you want done about it. (e.g. ‘I would like an assurance that your officials will abide by undertakings given to the Prime Ministers of Australia and New Zealand three years ago not to carry out excavations on a battlefield prior to survey by historians and archaeologists’. )
Turkey are aspiring members of the EU and I am sure if everybody who reads this thread writes as recommended the message will get home. At worst we can have the consolation of knowing we have done at least something for those who did so much for us.
John
Amnesty encourage people to write letters to the appropriate authorities in cases of human rights abuse and as Chris suggests above this is one way in which we can attempt to bring about change with regard to recent upsetting events in the Gallipoli peninsula. Letter writing can be extremely effective e.g. the recent stay of execution of Troy Davis in USA – no offence intended to those in USA by the way.
I would suggest (in the case of those living in UK) writing to the Turkish Ambassador in London and the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Ankara. The details are:
His Excellency Mr Mehmet Yigit Alpogan, The Ambassador of Turkey
Embassy of the Republic of Turkey
43 Belgrave Square
LONDON
SW1X 8PA
[Form of address in the letter: either Excellency or Dear Mr Ambassador]
Mr Ali Babacan
Minister of Foreign Affairs
Republic of Turkey Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Balgat
ANKARA
Turkey 06100
[Form of address in the letter: Dear Mr Babacan]
It would be presumptuous for me to lay down the content of this letter, but as a suggestion for those with no prior experience in such matters:
Be courteous no matter how incensed you feel
Write in your normal style – no high flown language necessary
Try to avoid being long winded
The format usually followed is three paragraphs:
• State the problem (ample information here from Bill’s postings)
• State why it affects you (e.g. ‘I am a former serving officer in HM Forces with a father who fought in Gallipoli in 1915. He had a very high regard for his Turkish opponents and I feel strongly that the remains of the fallen on both side should not be treated in this way…..’)
• Say what you want done about it. (e.g. ‘I would like an assurance that your officials will abide by undertakings given to the Prime Ministers of Australia and New Zealand three years ago not to carry out excavations on a battlefield prior to survey by historians and archaeologists’. )
Turkey are aspiring members of the EU and I am sure if everybody who reads this thread writes as recommended the message will get home. At worst we can have the consolation of knowing we have done at least something for those who did so much for us.
John
John
thanks for your input
For the Aussie/Kiwis reading this thread why not try contacting your government and the Turkish embassies in those countries
Chris
thanks for your input
For the Aussie/Kiwis reading this thread why not try contacting your government and the Turkish embassies in those countries
Chris
I am so concerned about Bill and the others involved in this and it really makes you realise how far away they are.
Thoughts and prayers for the safety of you all.
Blessings
Sandra
Thoughts and prayers for the safety of you all.
Blessings
Sandra
If anybody can,Mr.Ali Babacan.
I'm hoping he doesn't have 40 thieves in his vicinity.
Thanks John ,for the addies.
Emails sent,letters to London on the way as soon as I'm back.
I'm hoping he doesn't have 40 thieves in his vicinity.
Thanks John ,for the addies.
Emails sent,letters to London on the way as soon as I'm back.
It was only two weeks ago we were standing on the old frontline at Fusilier Bluff where the ploughed fields still show the mine craters of that period. To think that these are under threat of being covered by tons of concrete to facilitate a modern car park is sickening. This is no memorial to the fallen of both sides as bulldozers are posed to cut through the bones of our ancestors (I have also heard that Gully Ravine itself is under threat and bulldozers are there too). If there is a need to build a car-park (which I doubt) place it away from the old frontline trenches as there is ample room on the Nuri Yamut approach road. It is worth mentioning that this precise area is riddled with mine galleries and almost certainly there is danger from unexploded mines - Park your car with care!
I have always understood, rightly or wrongly, that the Gallipoli National Park authority’s responsibility was to help preserve the Gallipoli Peninsula rather than seemingly lending a hand in its destruction. At Anzac, Bill is not exaggerating the height of the road which is almost comical in its proportions. Why they are cutting away a verge that is impossible to put a vehicle on only makes me think they are widening the road, thus destroying the trenches that run along both sides of the Second Ridge road. We already have a car park over “Turkish Quinn’s”, Souvenir stalls on the “Chessboard”, a Public Toilet by “Dead Man’s Ridge” and "Anzac Cove" remains covered by the road excavation from the preious year. Our heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives are probably rolling in their graves.
I don't know what to say, I am heartbroken to continue to hear about this aimless wrecking of the battlefield. We thought that the dumping of rubbish and human excrement in the old trenches at Helles and the trucks emptying tons of plastic bags down the cliff faces onto the beaches and sea was bad enough. It seems to get worst as the years go by.
I hope that Bill, Sahin, Haluk and friends can make a difference, if only to halt the work before more damage is done. Why can we not have an authority that can balance an understanding of tourism and development with battlefield conservation/preservation?
I have always understood, rightly or wrongly, that the Gallipoli National Park authority’s responsibility was to help preserve the Gallipoli Peninsula rather than seemingly lending a hand in its destruction. At Anzac, Bill is not exaggerating the height of the road which is almost comical in its proportions. Why they are cutting away a verge that is impossible to put a vehicle on only makes me think they are widening the road, thus destroying the trenches that run along both sides of the Second Ridge road. We already have a car park over “Turkish Quinn’s”, Souvenir stalls on the “Chessboard”, a Public Toilet by “Dead Man’s Ridge” and "Anzac Cove" remains covered by the road excavation from the preious year. Our heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives are probably rolling in their graves.
I don't know what to say, I am heartbroken to continue to hear about this aimless wrecking of the battlefield. We thought that the dumping of rubbish and human excrement in the old trenches at Helles and the trucks emptying tons of plastic bags down the cliff faces onto the beaches and sea was bad enough. It seems to get worst as the years go by.
I hope that Bill, Sahin, Haluk and friends can make a difference, if only to halt the work before more damage is done. Why can we not have an authority that can balance an understanding of tourism and development with battlefield conservation/preservation?
Bill – I cannot find words to express my feelings, but I thank you for bringing the situation to the attention of the forum.
My very best wishes to you and Serpil – take care and be safe.
My very best wishes to you and Serpil – take care and be safe.
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?Men...ontentID=104889
News report from Western Australian newspapers.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
News report from Western Australian newspapers.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
Bill: Thanks for this thread. Food for thought though: imagine in the nearish future when battlefields of World War I will be tampered with, altered or destroyed and no one will even know this!
John
Toronto
John
Toronto
Bill Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Although it is evident that there needs to be ample parking space for visitors, I think all concerned should work hand in hand to find an acceptable solution and care is taken when construction activities are a must (floods, wind damage, natural events, roadside filling, other repairs etc.). After all, we must take the French experience as an example. I believe many of French battlefields, remains are buried under concrete in France and many other countries that I am not in knowledge of.
One thing in the effort to let the Turkish authorities know of frustration that may be felt by some could be to write letters in Turkish. I am sure they are not going to fall into pieces to have every email message translated
regards
Although it is evident that there needs to be ample parking space for visitors, I think all concerned should work hand in hand to find an acceptable solution and care is taken when construction activities are a must (floods, wind damage, natural events, roadside filling, other repairs etc.). After all, we must take the French experience as an example. I believe many of French battlefields, remains are buried under concrete in France and many other countries that I am not in knowledge of.
One thing in the effort to let the Turkish authorities know of frustration that may be felt by some could be to write letters in Turkish. I am sure they are not going to fall into pieces to have every email message translated
regards
Incensed as I may be, this does not surprise me!
A friend of my wife has a Turkish husband who was well educated in Turkey, came to an English university and stayed here.
On speaking to him about the great war he made it quite clear that this is not taught in Turkish history lessons and he had almost no knowledge of Gallipoli, although he was aware of the place name but was unable to recall why.
Letter to the ambassador sent today & I will be asking my Turkish friend to do the same
Andy
A friend of my wife has a Turkish husband who was well educated in Turkey, came to an English university and stayed here.
On speaking to him about the great war he made it quite clear that this is not taught in Turkish history lessons and he had almost no knowledge of Gallipoli, although he was aware of the place name but was unable to recall why.
Letter to the ambassador sent today & I will be asking my Turkish friend to do the same
Andy
Sorry to keep banging on about Amnesty, but they do have very considerable experience of letter writing campaigns. With respect to Dogan Sahin, their advice is that unless you are totally proficient in the language of the country concerned, you should write your letters in English. I presume the thinking is that mistranslation runs the risk of making the writer appear naive or comical and thus devalues the strength of the point being made.
Turkish Ambassadors and their staff in most western capitals could be expected to be fluent in English and it would be surprising if this were not also the case with key staff at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Ankara.
The alternative would be to have a blueprint letter which Dogan might translate into Turkish and which we all might copy and send. However, the downside of this is that the authorities would see that the texts of every letter were identical and thus be able to question whether the reaction was truly spontaneous or the work of an organised pressure group.
I am concerned that nothing should stop anyone who feels strongly on this subject from writing right now.
Finally I hope Bill gains some comfort from knowing that his situation is known to many people round the world and that we shall continue to take a keen interest in his wellbeing.
John
Turkish Ambassadors and their staff in most western capitals could be expected to be fluent in English and it would be surprising if this were not also the case with key staff at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Ankara.
The alternative would be to have a blueprint letter which Dogan might translate into Turkish and which we all might copy and send. However, the downside of this is that the authorities would see that the texts of every letter were identical and thus be able to question whether the reaction was truly spontaneous or the work of an organised pressure group.
I am concerned that nothing should stop anyone who feels strongly on this subject from writing right now.
Finally I hope Bill gains some comfort from knowing that his situation is known to many people round the world and that we shall continue to take a keen interest in his wellbeing.
John
Bill.
Thanks for highlighting this - I can understand why you are upset,
There has to be a compromise between the needs of modern society and respect for the past - such as at Boesinghe in Ieper. Whilst in that instance they may not have done everything perfectly (who does?) at least they have made an effort and we respect them accordingly for their consideration to our past generations.
I think we all understand that the Gallipoli area probably needs modernising to cope with the demands of increased traffic and the number of visitors but it has to be combined with regard for the bones of men they might find in the process (whatever their nationality)! Without them no one would be going there in the first place!
Neil
Thanks for highlighting this - I can understand why you are upset,
There has to be a compromise between the needs of modern society and respect for the past - such as at Boesinghe in Ieper. Whilst in that instance they may not have done everything perfectly (who does?) at least they have made an effort and we respect them accordingly for their consideration to our past generations.
I think we all understand that the Gallipoli area probably needs modernising to cope with the demands of increased traffic and the number of visitors but it has to be combined with regard for the bones of men they might find in the process (whatever their nationality)! Without them no one would be going there in the first place!
Neil
Hi Bill,
Thanks for bringing all of this to our attention, I am completely gobsmacked that this is still going on, and Turkey cant understand why it has problems being welcomed into the EC ? Could this be the kind of thing that might add to all the others ?For all the Irish pals out there please see the contact details for the Turkish Embassy in Ireland. As has been said in past posts. please keep the letters/ emails nice and to the point.
The Embassy of Republic of Turkey
11 Clyde Road
Ballsbridge
Dublin 4
Tel: 01-6685240/6601623
Fax: 01-6685014
Email : turkembassy@eircom.net
Peter
Thanks for bringing all of this to our attention, I am completely gobsmacked that this is still going on, and Turkey cant understand why it has problems being welcomed into the EC ? Could this be the kind of thing that might add to all the others ?For all the Irish pals out there please see the contact details for the Turkish Embassy in Ireland. As has been said in past posts. please keep the letters/ emails nice and to the point.
The Embassy of Republic of Turkey
11 Clyde Road
Ballsbridge
Dublin 4
Tel: 01-6685240/6601623
Fax: 01-6685014
Email : turkembassy@eircom.net
Peter
Take the politicians out and it would be a no brainer.
While we were at Gallipoli, the Turkish people we had the pleasure and honour of meeting, understood and respected our reasons for visiting. They could not have been more helpful or respectful. These were everyday Turkish people.
It seems if a human bone is found, then the fear of red tape means that the contractors try and remove the evidence.
Money is after all money, and bones hold up payment.
What really annoys me, are the government people of nations, that say, We are looking into it, while at the same time doing nothing.
The same excuses are trotted out over and over again.
They try and find a scapegoat, deny physical evidence and hope that it will all go away.
By doing this they show disrespect to their forefathers who fought at Gallipoli, and those who fought there, and who developed a respect for each other.
The words of Attaturk seem to have faded from the conscience of the politicians of both sides.
At least those who have an interest in Gallipoli, remember the respect between, and the stories of the Anzacs and the Turks.
If Turkey wants to go ahead, as it claims it wishes to do so, it must see that suppression of the voice of the people will not endear it to the European community, and wileful disregard of war dead is not looked upon favourably. They should turn their eyes towards the example set by Belgium and France, where all dead, of all nations are treated with respect.
Regards
Kim
While we were at Gallipoli, the Turkish people we had the pleasure and honour of meeting, understood and respected our reasons for visiting. They could not have been more helpful or respectful. These were everyday Turkish people.
It seems if a human bone is found, then the fear of red tape means that the contractors try and remove the evidence.
Money is after all money, and bones hold up payment.
What really annoys me, are the government people of nations, that say, We are looking into it, while at the same time doing nothing.
The same excuses are trotted out over and over again.
They try and find a scapegoat, deny physical evidence and hope that it will all go away.
By doing this they show disrespect to their forefathers who fought at Gallipoli, and those who fought there, and who developed a respect for each other.
The words of Attaturk seem to have faded from the conscience of the politicians of both sides.
At least those who have an interest in Gallipoli, remember the respect between, and the stories of the Anzacs and the Turks.
If Turkey wants to go ahead, as it claims it wishes to do so, it must see that suppression of the voice of the people will not endear it to the European community, and wileful disregard of war dead is not looked upon favourably. They should turn their eyes towards the example set by Belgium and France, where all dead, of all nations are treated with respect.
Regards
Kim
Simon has posted The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne here
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=0#entry1036660
There are some articles within that clearly set out the protocals for the remains of soldiers at Gallipoli.
Ta Simon.
Kim
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=0#entry1036660
There are some articles within that clearly set out the protocals for the remains of soldiers at Gallipoli.
Ta Simon.
Kim
Kim
My feelings exactly ,like you , on my many visits to the Peninsula I have found
nothing but friendship and a willingness to help , be it directions ,offers of transport
and a genuine respect for my reason of being there.
The higher powers should read and absorb those wonderful words written by ATATURK
in 1934.
Peter
My feelings exactly ,like you , on my many visits to the Peninsula I have found
nothing but friendship and a willingness to help , be it directions ,offers of transport
and a genuine respect for my reason of being there.
The higher powers should read and absorb those wonderful words written by ATATURK
in 1934.
Peter
I am absolutely horrified at the news above.
"Turkish authorities say the roadworks are necessary to cater to the hordes of tourists visiting the Gallipoli peninsula each year "
This seems to imply that tourists are the problem. Could it also provide a point to argue ie remind the Turkish government that these hordes might just not come any more to these sites or, indeed, to Turkey at all because of their actions and, thus, affect their 'tourist' bank balance? (As well as writing to the various embassies etc, of course.)
Mabel
"Turkish authorities say the roadworks are necessary to cater to the hordes of tourists visiting the Gallipoli peninsula each year "
This seems to imply that tourists are the problem. Could it also provide a point to argue ie remind the Turkish government that these hordes might just not come any more to these sites or, indeed, to Turkey at all because of their actions and, thus, affect their 'tourist' bank balance? (As well as writing to the various embassies etc, of course.)
Mabel
Mabel, good point.
It is not only the hordes of tourists, but the manner in which the infrastructure to receive these hordes of tourists, is "gone about".
As Eceabat Bill has noted, the roadworks have been done in such a way, as to make the roads actually a safety hazard, re: raised shoulders.
Call me simple, but, having walked the Gallipoli battlefields, (read sweating and gasping through scrub and cliff, led by the one and only, inexhaustible, Kenan), I would say that if one was truly wanting to experience and pay homage to those of all who died at Gallipoli, then one should walk the battlefields. (We did have the luxury of having a mini bus drop us off and pick us up at certain points, read MINI bus.) But the hard yards were done on foot.
With regard to Anzac and Suvla, the buses should be stopped at Beach Cemetery. That would can a lot of the traffic. But, the Turkish people are coming late to their history, and large bus loads and many cars arrive in August for the Attaturk memorials.
We witnessed this. The hawkers, the rubbish, the .....
As well, I might add a fleeting visit by the Australian Basketball team.
Drive up to a notable point, get the lecture and drive off.
Surely, if one was to appreciate Gallipoli, and the suffering and perseverance of the men who fought, suffered and died there, one should walk the place?
To paraphrase a famous personage, "Let them ride donkeys."
If going to Gallipoli meant that I would have to use shank's pony, or to straddle a mule, then I would gratefully do so, if it meant that those who lay beneath the shifting gravel and thorny bushes, remained in situ, undisturbed, whatever their nationality or religion.
Some say "Get over it, they are dead and gone" but they say it without the realization that it is history that begets the future, and the torch that was thrown so high by those first Anzacs, has been carried on through the decades to the next generations, who have left the shores of Australia and New Zealand, to fight battles that were of others creation, but those Anzacs carried the torch with the spirit of those who fought at Gallipoli. That spirit is ingrained in the Australian and New Zealand conscious, whether it be myth, legend, or fact, and that spirit has seen Anzacs through the worst of hell on earth, and has won the respect of those they fought for, and against.
It is a shame that the words of Ataturk have been forgottten by the politicans.
"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives…
You are now living in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours…
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace, after having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Ataturk, 1934
One would hope that the Johnies and the Mehmets are allowed to lay in peace, not be torn asunder from their resting places, because the tourist dollar is greater than their sacrifice.
Kim
It is not only the hordes of tourists, but the manner in which the infrastructure to receive these hordes of tourists, is "gone about".
As Eceabat Bill has noted, the roadworks have been done in such a way, as to make the roads actually a safety hazard, re: raised shoulders.
Call me simple, but, having walked the Gallipoli battlefields, (read sweating and gasping through scrub and cliff, led by the one and only, inexhaustible, Kenan), I would say that if one was truly wanting to experience and pay homage to those of all who died at Gallipoli, then one should walk the battlefields. (We did have the luxury of having a mini bus drop us off and pick us up at certain points, read MINI bus.) But the hard yards were done on foot.
With regard to Anzac and Suvla, the buses should be stopped at Beach Cemetery. That would can a lot of the traffic. But, the Turkish people are coming late to their history, and large bus loads and many cars arrive in August for the Attaturk memorials.
We witnessed this. The hawkers, the rubbish, the .....
As well, I might add a fleeting visit by the Australian Basketball team.
Drive up to a notable point, get the lecture and drive off.
Surely, if one was to appreciate Gallipoli, and the suffering and perseverance of the men who fought, suffered and died there, one should walk the place?
To paraphrase a famous personage, "Let them ride donkeys."
If going to Gallipoli meant that I would have to use shank's pony, or to straddle a mule, then I would gratefully do so, if it meant that those who lay beneath the shifting gravel and thorny bushes, remained in situ, undisturbed, whatever their nationality or religion.
Some say "Get over it, they are dead and gone" but they say it without the realization that it is history that begets the future, and the torch that was thrown so high by those first Anzacs, has been carried on through the decades to the next generations, who have left the shores of Australia and New Zealand, to fight battles that were of others creation, but those Anzacs carried the torch with the spirit of those who fought at Gallipoli. That spirit is ingrained in the Australian and New Zealand conscious, whether it be myth, legend, or fact, and that spirit has seen Anzacs through the worst of hell on earth, and has won the respect of those they fought for, and against.
It is a shame that the words of Ataturk have been forgottten by the politicans.
"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives…
You are now living in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours…
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace, after having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Ataturk, 1934
One would hope that the Johnies and the Mehmets are allowed to lay in peace, not be torn asunder from their resting places, because the tourist dollar is greater than their sacrifice.
Kim
Hi all,
sorry for not being able to take much part in the subsequent discussions after first raising this issue, things have been a bit busy here.
Mabel, it would make no difference if all foreign visitors to the battlefields stopped coming. The 40,000 or so who do come to the peninsula every year represent only a fraction of the numbers who make the pilgrimage. According to Turkish officials, last year more than two million Turks visited the peninsula. If is for them that much of the construction work is being carried out, especially in the southern or Cape Helles sector.
There has been a fair degree of criticism of this issue being raised and the reaction it has provoked. Tony Wright, author of the book Turn Right At Istanbul – a walk on the Gallipoli Peninsula, wrote in The Age on Wednesday: "Much of the reaction in Australia to the story of the roadworks is at best ill-thought-out and at worst an insult to the Turkish authorities".
Turkey's ambassador to Canberra has also described my criticism of Turkish officials of not showing due care as being "offensive" and "ridiculous".
Let's look at a couple of facts. The same day the ambassador denied there was any road work being carried out, citing as his source for this information the governor of the province of Canakkale, that said same official had been quoted in an article in a national daily as saying work was being conducted on the four kilometre long road up to Chunuk Bair.
Turkish officials have also said that, due to the contractor who had laid the new asphalt on the Second Ridge road raising the level of the road to an excessive level, remedial work was required. I am not sure how clearing a wide swathe of the undergrowth and digging ditches up to one metre deep at the side of the road helps rectify the problem of having too much asphalt, but there you are. It has been suggested the ditches at the side of the road will be filled in to raise the level of the verge to near that of the roadbed. Of course, if they hadn't dug out the earth at the side of the road in the first place, or the road level raise too high, this may not have been necessary.
The governor also said that the work was part of winter maintenance works that were being carried out without "damaging the natural fabric" of the terrain. If what has been done on Second Ridge has not harmed the terrain, what would the most senior Turkish official in the region consider would constitute damage.
Now, having mucked up the Anzac Cove road in 2005, which subsequently had to be ripped up because it was structurally unsound and dangerous, and is now a gravel track, we are told the contractor got in wrong on Second Ridge three years later, just as officials said of the 2005 road works.
Frankly, having had one major problem wouldn't an official body such as Turkey's National Park Authority ensure that a contractor laying a four kilometre long road through a historically important and environmentally sensitive area be supervised in some form? Is it not fair to criticise those who make the same mistake a second time?
In 2005, I was as critical of the Australian government as I was of the Turkish, more so in fact. This time around, what has happened is the work of Turkish authorities, with Australian officials not being told that excavation work was to be carried out, contrary to an agreement reached in 2005. This work was stopped immediately Australian officials visited the site.
(Don't worry folks, the rant is ending soon).
Much has been made of the fact that the Gallipoli Peninsula is Turkish and that far more Turkish soldiers fell there than Allies. True on both counts, I am certainly not one to argue against geography and history. However, (you knew there would be a “however” didn't you) I have always said this debate is about protecting the heritage shared by all those countries whose men served in the campaign. Raising this issue was not an attempt to pit Australian against Turks, quite the opposite, it is a plea for the peoples and governments of all the nations whose men lie on this land to come together to protect what we share.
Bill
sorry for not being able to take much part in the subsequent discussions after first raising this issue, things have been a bit busy here.
Mabel, it would make no difference if all foreign visitors to the battlefields stopped coming. The 40,000 or so who do come to the peninsula every year represent only a fraction of the numbers who make the pilgrimage. According to Turkish officials, last year more than two million Turks visited the peninsula. If is for them that much of the construction work is being carried out, especially in the southern or Cape Helles sector.
There has been a fair degree of criticism of this issue being raised and the reaction it has provoked. Tony Wright, author of the book Turn Right At Istanbul – a walk on the Gallipoli Peninsula, wrote in The Age on Wednesday: "Much of the reaction in Australia to the story of the roadworks is at best ill-thought-out and at worst an insult to the Turkish authorities".
Turkey's ambassador to Canberra has also described my criticism of Turkish officials of not showing due care as being "offensive" and "ridiculous".
Let's look at a couple of facts. The same day the ambassador denied there was any road work being carried out, citing as his source for this information the governor of the province of Canakkale, that said same official had been quoted in an article in a national daily as saying work was being conducted on the four kilometre long road up to Chunuk Bair.
Turkish officials have also said that, due to the contractor who had laid the new asphalt on the Second Ridge road raising the level of the road to an excessive level, remedial work was required. I am not sure how clearing a wide swathe of the undergrowth and digging ditches up to one metre deep at the side of the road helps rectify the problem of having too much asphalt, but there you are. It has been suggested the ditches at the side of the road will be filled in to raise the level of the verge to near that of the roadbed. Of course, if they hadn't dug out the earth at the side of the road in the first place, or the road level raise too high, this may not have been necessary.
The governor also said that the work was part of winter maintenance works that were being carried out without "damaging the natural fabric" of the terrain. If what has been done on Second Ridge has not harmed the terrain, what would the most senior Turkish official in the region consider would constitute damage.
Now, having mucked up the Anzac Cove road in 2005, which subsequently had to be ripped up because it was structurally unsound and dangerous, and is now a gravel track, we are told the contractor got in wrong on Second Ridge three years later, just as officials said of the 2005 road works.
Frankly, having had one major problem wouldn't an official body such as Turkey's National Park Authority ensure that a contractor laying a four kilometre long road through a historically important and environmentally sensitive area be supervised in some form? Is it not fair to criticise those who make the same mistake a second time?
In 2005, I was as critical of the Australian government as I was of the Turkish, more so in fact. This time around, what has happened is the work of Turkish authorities, with Australian officials not being told that excavation work was to be carried out, contrary to an agreement reached in 2005. This work was stopped immediately Australian officials visited the site.
(Don't worry folks, the rant is ending soon).
Much has been made of the fact that the Gallipoli Peninsula is Turkish and that far more Turkish soldiers fell there than Allies. True on both counts, I am certainly not one to argue against geography and history. However, (you knew there would be a “however” didn't you) I have always said this debate is about protecting the heritage shared by all those countries whose men served in the campaign. Raising this issue was not an attempt to pit Australian against Turks, quite the opposite, it is a plea for the peoples and governments of all the nations whose men lie on this land to come together to protect what we share.
Bill
Kim
"One would hope that the Johnies and the Mehmets are allowed to lay in peace, not be torn asunder from their resting places, because the tourist dollar is greater than their sacrifice."
Hear, hear. I'm usually a reasonably articulate person but, for some reason, the act of posting on this site with it's many, many experts, renders me very inarticulate, however you've managed to express my feelings very well.
Mabel
"One would hope that the Johnies and the Mehmets are allowed to lay in peace, not be torn asunder from their resting places, because the tourist dollar is greater than their sacrifice."
Hear, hear. I'm usually a reasonably articulate person but, for some reason, the act of posting on this site with it's many, many experts, renders me very inarticulate, however you've managed to express my feelings very well.
Mabel
Bill
I realised that my remarks about tourists not going to Gallipoli could be seen as simply cutting off noses to spite faces so to speak. The suggestion was as much about horror and frustration at the desecration being carried out as anything else. Thank you for all and any updates.
Mabel
I realised that my remarks about tourists not going to Gallipoli could be seen as simply cutting off noses to spite faces so to speak. The suggestion was as much about horror and frustration at the desecration being carried out as anything else. Thank you for all and any updates.
Mabel
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the update, its hard to follow Monty Python and look on the bright side of life. Have you been to the construction site at Fusilier Bluff recently, I was wondering what the latest situation was?
regards, Krithia
Thanks for the update, its hard to follow Monty Python and look on the bright side of life. Have you been to the construction site at Fusilier Bluff recently, I was wondering what the latest situation was?
regards, Krithia
I am very concerned about what is going on here - there should be some guidelines and supervision form the Turkish Parks authority as to how this thing is being handled and why?
The heritage of sites like this is constantly at risk, the Turkish authorities have a responsibility here, not just to their own country but to the memories of all who fought and died on the peninsula...................
Rodge Dowson
The heritage of sites like this is constantly at risk, the Turkish authorities have a responsibility here, not just to their own country but to the memories of all who fought and died on the peninsula...................
Rodge Dowson
QUOTE (Krithia @ Oct 30 2008, 09:25 AM) 
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the update, its hard to follow Monty Python and look on the bright side of life. Have you been to the construction site at Fusilier Bluff recently, I was wondering what the latest situation was?
regards, Krithia
Thanks for the update, its hard to follow Monty Python and look on the bright side of life. Have you been to the construction site at Fusilier Bluff recently, I was wondering what the latest situation was?
regards, Krithia
or do you have any up to date photos of the construction site at Fusilier Bluff?
Hi Pals,
sorry again for not being able to answer all queries things are getting even more hectic.
A good friend and staunch defender of the battlefields, Gursel Goncu (Baby 700 here on the forum) is down at Gully Ravine now. I will be able to give something of an update late today or tomorrow (depending on the blinding hangover I anticipate from tonight).
The national park DOES have very strict guidleines, and is governed by laws and regulations. One of these is that no historical site, especially the trenches, should be damaged in any way by any work. Another is that all work in the park must be first assessed by a committee of historians appointed for this purpose and then the plans go to a special heritage and culture commission, an official state body. (pauses for hysterical laughter). The head of the commission, a professor, just came out half an hour ago in the local media saying that the work on Second Ridge was not only not approved but no plans were presented.
A local association representing Turkish tour guides has just issued a statement. It started in a mild fashion with the heading "History Slaughtered at Gallipoli" and then really got stuck in. And yes, the work at Gully Ravine got a mention.
In 2005, many in Turkey saw the issue as Australia interfering in Turkish affairs, this time it is personal.
As I write, there is an official delegation on the peninsula, looking at the Second Ridge work. This group consists of senior military officers (we are talking heavy brass here), archaeologists and historians. While I fear a whitewash, I do know the guys in the green suits are way unhappy. There has been some good work done by some people here in pushing this issue behind closed doors with high command.
I'll try and post more as things develop.
Cheer
Bill
sorry again for not being able to answer all queries things are getting even more hectic.
A good friend and staunch defender of the battlefields, Gursel Goncu (Baby 700 here on the forum) is down at Gully Ravine now. I will be able to give something of an update late today or tomorrow (depending on the blinding hangover I anticipate from tonight).
The national park DOES have very strict guidleines, and is governed by laws and regulations. One of these is that no historical site, especially the trenches, should be damaged in any way by any work. Another is that all work in the park must be first assessed by a committee of historians appointed for this purpose and then the plans go to a special heritage and culture commission, an official state body. (pauses for hysterical laughter). The head of the commission, a professor, just came out half an hour ago in the local media saying that the work on Second Ridge was not only not approved but no plans were presented.
A local association representing Turkish tour guides has just issued a statement. It started in a mild fashion with the heading "History Slaughtered at Gallipoli" and then really got stuck in. And yes, the work at Gully Ravine got a mention.
In 2005, many in Turkey saw the issue as Australia interfering in Turkish affairs, this time it is personal.
As I write, there is an official delegation on the peninsula, looking at the Second Ridge work. This group consists of senior military officers (we are talking heavy brass here), archaeologists and historians. While I fear a whitewash, I do know the guys in the green suits are way unhappy. There has been some good work done by some people here in pushing this issue behind closed doors with high command.
I'll try and post more as things develop.
Cheer
Bill
Thanks for the update, Bill.
Please pass on regards to those who are standing up and being heard.
Kim
Please pass on regards to those who are standing up and being heard.
Kim
Thanks for the updates Bill.
I suppose one of the positives in this whole sorry saga is that it is being debated quite long and loud in the media. My husband told off a former dill of a pm in the usual aussie forthright manner tonight, pity it was only the telly and not in person. I was torn between shock and laughter, if the whole thing wasn't so serious.
Cheers
Shirley
I suppose one of the positives in this whole sorry saga is that it is being debated quite long and loud in the media. My husband told off a former dill of a pm in the usual aussie forthright manner tonight, pity it was only the telly and not in person. I was torn between shock and laughter, if the whole thing wasn't so serious.
Cheers
Shirley
Whats already been done has been done. But at least this time the Turks themselves seem to be saying this is wrong and procedures have not been followed. My Tony Wright book will be binned tonight - what an ****.
Would appreciate photos of what is happening at Gully Ravine.
Thanks and regards,
Jonathan S
Would appreciate photos of what is happening at Gully Ravine.
Thanks and regards,
Jonathan S
Thanks for all the info and update Bill. Will await your next post with interest (hang over and all)
Peter
Peter
Hi Pals,
for what it is worth, Turkey's leading English language paper, the Turkish Daily News, printed my response to the Turkish ambassador's recent article on the roadworks. The TDN had run the ambassador's piece, entitled Lessons of Gallipoli, on October 29, with the Sydney Morning Herald having originally carried the article on October 28. The SMH and the rest of the Fairfax media which carried the article by the ambassador has not responded to my request for a right of reply. At least the Turkish media has embraced the concept of free speech.
Anyway, for those who want to wade through it, here is my piece.
Cheers
Bill
Unlearned Lessons of Gallipoli
By Bill Sellars
There is much in the opinion piece Lessons of Gallipoli written by Turkey’s ambassador to Australia, Murat Ersavci, and carried by the Sydney Morning Herald on October 28 with which I agree.
There is most definitely a strong bond between Turkey, Australia and New Zealand that has grown up in the years following the First World War. This bond is grounded in the shared heritage born of the experiences and suffering during the Gallipoli Campaign of 1915.
As the ambassador rightly said, Turkey does much to facilitate the visits by foreigners to the battlefields, most particularly around the time of April 25, Anzac Day.
Turkey has indeed entered into agreements with the governments of Australia and New Zealand aimed at protecting the battlefields of 1915.
Most of all, I agree with Mr Ersavci’s statement that Gallipoli is in Turkey.
Where we differ is on what the issues are in the current debate over the recent damage to historical sites on the battlefield.
Mr Ersavci wrote that the road to Anzac Cove was being repaired and somewhat widened to allow access for the increasing number of visitors.
The fact of the matter is that the recent work is being carried out on the road running along what is known as Second Ridge, the front line area from the first day of the fighting until the last, not on the coastal road running around Anzac Cove, some 800 metres below the hills.
The work to widen the coastal road took place in early 2005, and was the cause of the controversy over the destruction of historical sites at the time.
Turkey has agreed to work with Australia and New Zealand to protect the battlefields. One such agreement, coming in the wake of the damage to the Anzac Cove area in 2005, was to establish a joint committee of experts to conduct a full historical and archaeological survey of the area. There was also a commitment that no developments, particularly excavations, would be carried out till this survey, which has yet to begin, was completed.
It was this commitment that Turkish officials failed to meet when excavating wide ditches along either side of Second Ridge road.
I do agree though with the ambassador’s statement, made to the Australian media on October 27, that, “Somebody has been digging at the side of the road, digging things up”.
Someone was, and they were using heavy earth moving equipment belonging to the Turkish State Roads Authority. It is this work that has caused irreparable damage to the battlefield and disturbed the remains of some of the many thousands of the fallen who have no known grave, their bones being removed hastily from the site by Turkish authorities.
However, rather than staying with an “I said, he said” style debate, maybe it would be better to hear what “they” said, they being some of the Turks Mr Ersavci claims will be offended by statements that Turkish authorities were responsible for the damage to historic sites.
In an article carried by leading Turkish daily Hurriyet on October 27, Professor Haluk Oral, an academic at Bosphorus University and author of the book Gallipoli 1915 Through Turkish Eyes, quoted a few lines written by one of that country’s most famous poets, Mehmet Akif, to the fallen defenders of the peninsula.
“It would be worthy if your ancestors descended from the skies and came to kiss that clean forehead.”
“If their ancestors really did descend to earth, they would have a really hard time to find a forehead to kiss among skulls shattered by bulldozers,” said Oral.
The same article also quoted historian Sahin Aldogan, co-author of a bi-lingual guidebook to the battlefields, as saying after the Anzac Cove incident in 2005 and the protests of Australia and New Zealand it was agreed to find a joint solution to any problems.
“At that time officials from the three countries got together with historians and talked. There the decision was made to carry out no changes in the area without consulting with historians. It was decided that before any decisions, before any bulldozers entered that area, historians should go in first. But we see once again that no one cares about this aspect. The operators of the graders are working, digging everywhere with no care…”
Unal Omercioglu, the head of the Canakkale Chamber of Architects, said that, “respect for history can not be left to the initiative of a bulldozer operator”.
Interviewed by local newspaper Canakkale Olay on October 29, he also pointed out that plans for the recent work on Second Ridge had not been submitted for the approval of the Canakkale Nature and Culture Protection Committee, as was required by regulations governing the national park.
The October 28 edition of the same paper carried an interview with Yetkin Iscen, a well know writer and expert on the campaign.
“According to Iscen, this site, which should have special protection and should be managed by scientists and historians, is left in the hands of Forestry Ministry staff who have no connections with the issue and do not know the area at all,” the article said.
“With this mentality, work is conducted in a manner at a historical site as if a fire break is being opened in a forest. Without asking anyone, without asking historians,” Iscen said.
Perhaps here too the ambassador is right, at least in part. They do seem offended.
Maybe it would be best to conclude with a few last words from Turkey, a stanza from the stirring Turkish national anthem, the Independence March:
“View not the soil you tread on as mere earth, recognise it!
And think about the shroudless thousands who lie so nobly beneath you.”
Bill Sellars is an Australian writer who lives on the Gallipoli Peninsula.
for what it is worth, Turkey's leading English language paper, the Turkish Daily News, printed my response to the Turkish ambassador's recent article on the roadworks. The TDN had run the ambassador's piece, entitled Lessons of Gallipoli, on October 29, with the Sydney Morning Herald having originally carried the article on October 28. The SMH and the rest of the Fairfax media which carried the article by the ambassador has not responded to my request for a right of reply. At least the Turkish media has embraced the concept of free speech.
Anyway, for those who want to wade through it, here is my piece.
Cheers
Bill
Unlearned Lessons of Gallipoli
By Bill Sellars
There is much in the opinion piece Lessons of Gallipoli written by Turkey’s ambassador to Australia, Murat Ersavci, and carried by the Sydney Morning Herald on October 28 with which I agree.
There is most definitely a strong bond between Turkey, Australia and New Zealand that has grown up in the years following the First World War. This bond is grounded in the shared heritage born of the experiences and suffering during the Gallipoli Campaign of 1915.
As the ambassador rightly said, Turkey does much to facilitate the visits by foreigners to the battlefields, most particularly around the time of April 25, Anzac Day.
Turkey has indeed entered into agreements with the governments of Australia and New Zealand aimed at protecting the battlefields of 1915.
Most of all, I agree with Mr Ersavci’s statement that Gallipoli is in Turkey.
Where we differ is on what the issues are in the current debate over the recent damage to historical sites on the battlefield.
Mr Ersavci wrote that the road to Anzac Cove was being repaired and somewhat widened to allow access for the increasing number of visitors.
The fact of the matter is that the recent work is being carried out on the road running along what is known as Second Ridge, the front line area from the first day of the fighting until the last, not on the coastal road running around Anzac Cove, some 800 metres below the hills.
The work to widen the coastal road took place in early 2005, and was the cause of the controversy over the destruction of historical sites at the time.
Turkey has agreed to work with Australia and New Zealand to protect the battlefields. One such agreement, coming in the wake of the damage to the Anzac Cove area in 2005, was to establish a joint committee of experts to conduct a full historical and archaeological survey of the area. There was also a commitment that no developments, particularly excavations, would be carried out till this survey, which has yet to begin, was completed.
It was this commitment that Turkish officials failed to meet when excavating wide ditches along either side of Second Ridge road.
I do agree though with the ambassador’s statement, made to the Australian media on October 27, that, “Somebody has been digging at the side of the road, digging things up”.
Someone was, and they were using heavy earth moving equipment belonging to the Turkish State Roads Authority. It is this work that has caused irreparable damage to the battlefield and disturbed the remains of some of the many thousands of the fallen who have no known grave, their bones being removed hastily from the site by Turkish authorities.
However, rather than staying with an “I said, he said” style debate, maybe it would be better to hear what “they” said, they being some of the Turks Mr Ersavci claims will be offended by statements that Turkish authorities were responsible for the damage to historic sites.
In an article carried by leading Turkish daily Hurriyet on October 27, Professor Haluk Oral, an academic at Bosphorus University and author of the book Gallipoli 1915 Through Turkish Eyes, quoted a few lines written by one of that country’s most famous poets, Mehmet Akif, to the fallen defenders of the peninsula.
“It would be worthy if your ancestors descended from the skies and came to kiss that clean forehead.”
“If their ancestors really did descend to earth, they would have a really hard time to find a forehead to kiss among skulls shattered by bulldozers,” said Oral.
The same article also quoted historian Sahin Aldogan, co-author of a bi-lingual guidebook to the battlefields, as saying after the Anzac Cove incident in 2005 and the protests of Australia and New Zealand it was agreed to find a joint solution to any problems.
“At that time officials from the three countries got together with historians and talked. There the decision was made to carry out no changes in the area without consulting with historians. It was decided that before any decisions, before any bulldozers entered that area, historians should go in first. But we see once again that no one cares about this aspect. The operators of the graders are working, digging everywhere with no care…”
Unal Omercioglu, the head of the Canakkale Chamber of Architects, said that, “respect for history can not be left to the initiative of a bulldozer operator”.
Interviewed by local newspaper Canakkale Olay on October 29, he also pointed out that plans for the recent work on Second Ridge had not been submitted for the approval of the Canakkale Nature and Culture Protection Committee, as was required by regulations governing the national park.
The October 28 edition of the same paper carried an interview with Yetkin Iscen, a well know writer and expert on the campaign.
“According to Iscen, this site, which should have special protection and should be managed by scientists and historians, is left in the hands of Forestry Ministry staff who have no connections with the issue and do not know the area at all,” the article said.
“With this mentality, work is conducted in a manner at a historical site as if a fire break is being opened in a forest. Without asking anyone, without asking historians,” Iscen said.
Perhaps here too the ambassador is right, at least in part. They do seem offended.
Maybe it would be best to conclude with a few last words from Turkey, a stanza from the stirring Turkish national anthem, the Independence March:
“View not the soil you tread on as mere earth, recognise it!
And think about the shroudless thousands who lie so nobly beneath you.”
Bill Sellars is an Australian writer who lives on the Gallipoli Peninsula.
In one of Bill's posts he noted, "Much has been made of the fact that the Gallipoli Peninsula is Turkish and that far more Turkish soldiers fell there than Allies. True on both counts, "
Hmmm, strange how, when it suits the authorities, there are suddenly 'far more' Turkish soldiers who died at Gallipoli than allied soldiers, when usually, the figure is given - and in most cases unquestionably accepted (just refer to a recent thread on this forum) - so that it roughly equals that of allied deaths. Seems the figure is fluid depending on the situation.
Hmmm, strange how, when it suits the authorities, there are suddenly 'far more' Turkish soldiers who died at Gallipoli than allied soldiers, when usually, the figure is given - and in most cases unquestionably accepted (just refer to a recent thread on this forum) - so that it roughly equals that of allied deaths. Seems the figure is fluid depending on the situation.
Hi Pals,
in these dark times, when so much is being lost by so many who hold the history and terrain of the battlefields on the Gallipoli Peninsula dear, it is hard to raise a smile. However, today I have laughed as I have not done so in a very long time.
Some of you may have seen an article penned by Murat Ersavci, Turkey's ambassador to Australia, defending the recent road works at Gallipoli and criticising myself for raising concerns over this issue.
A link to the ambassador's comments can be found at this site.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article...?enewsid=118723
Now I would like to share with you the ambassador's comments on statements made by Australian historian Bill Gammage on damage to the battlefields. This article was published on July 4, 2007. With the exception of changing the word Gammage for Sellars, and cutting in a comment or two of mine in place of those by the other Bill, the two pieces are exactly the same. And I mean exactly, word perfect exactly.
It seems that one argument fits all when it comes to claims Turkish authorities have harmed the shared heritage of the peninsula. Obviously the recent concerns did not warrant anything new in the way of a response.
The link, which is carried on the embassy's official website, is below.
http://www.turkishembassy.org.au/assets/docs/article_tdn.pdf
For those with a special interest in the developments at Fusilier Bluff, I am trying to put together a detailed report, but this is soul destroying work. Bear with me on this one.
As it is, after having just spent an age laughing myself sick, I think I need a little lie down, as hysteria is an exhausting thing.
Cheers
Bill (Sellars I think but it could be Gammage)
in these dark times, when so much is being lost by so many who hold the history and terrain of the battlefields on the Gallipoli Peninsula dear, it is hard to raise a smile. However, today I have laughed as I have not done so in a very long time.
Some of you may have seen an article penned by Murat Ersavci, Turkey's ambassador to Australia, defending the recent road works at Gallipoli and criticising myself for raising concerns over this issue.
A link to the ambassador's comments can be found at this site.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article...?enewsid=118723
Now I would like to share with you the ambassador's comments on statements made by Australian historian Bill Gammage on damage to the battlefields. This article was published on July 4, 2007. With the exception of changing the word Gammage for Sellars, and cutting in a comment or two of mine in place of those by the other Bill, the two pieces are exactly the same. And I mean exactly, word perfect exactly.
It seems that one argument fits all when it comes to claims Turkish authorities have harmed the shared heritage of the peninsula. Obviously the recent concerns did not warrant anything new in the way of a response.
The link, which is carried on the embassy's official website, is below.
http://www.turkishembassy.org.au/assets/docs/article_tdn.pdf
For those with a special interest in the developments at Fusilier Bluff, I am trying to put together a detailed report, but this is soul destroying work. Bear with me on this one.
As it is, after having just spent an age laughing myself sick, I think I need a little lie down, as hysteria is an exhausting thing.
Cheers
Bill (Sellars I think but it could be Gammage)
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