Anyone see this last night? Truly superb good old fashioned in-depth (90 min) documentary examining the German side of the Armistice. Particular emphasis on Ludendorff et al. No padding or pointless re-enacting. One of the best 14-18 programmes for years IMHO.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fcy1p

Yes I saw it too. It was very good - Prof Reynolds is a fine historian. The papers may moan on about the BBC but in the past three days you get three programmes about WW1 on the BBC each catering for different audiences. The fans of Reynolds may not be the fans of Nathalie from Eastenders but then its getting WW1 to as broader audience.

john

First class history programme which rolled out the events from the collapse of the German Army in late summer 1918 to the chaos of November 1918.Interestingly, Reynolds drew out the start of of the Great War with the German victory at Tannenberg (there was also the victory at the Masurian Lakes) and its reflection on the German optimism for final victory in the West.It is strange that Hitler also had this faith of what had gone on before would play an important part in his dreams being fulfilled for Germany to be the leading military power in Europe.

It was well known that Max Hoffmann as the General Staff Officer of the 8th Army had contributed much to these victories by his decisive involvement.Reynolds pointed out Hoffmann's small talk regarding Hindenburg's role being what we be now regard as being "casual and laid back" with a need to have a good nights sleep at every opportunity.

The fate of the Armistice carriage was mentioned at the end of the programme and once again supported the view that it was shipped off to Berlin.

Interestingly, they also showed a contemporary painting of the Armistice signing, which showed the carriage furnished with a smaller and much plainer table and a set of almost rustic hoop-backed bentwood chairs.

Overall, an excellent programme, which I shall watch again later today on the BBC I-Player, as there was so much in it that it was difficult to take everything in at the first viewing.

Really enjoyed it as well.

With regard to the famous railway carriage going to Berlin was I mistaken or did they briefly show a photo of it taken next to the Brandenburg Gate?

Regards,
Scottie.

Glad others found it - it's a shame that BBC4 is tucked away on Sky etc - some of the programmes on there are truly superb - bit like BBC2 20 odd years ago!

Damn! The one "anniversary" programme that I think I would actually have been interested in and I missed it!

Anyone know if its going to be re-shown at all in the near future?

It is on again on the 8th November at 1.35am, on BBC4

Alan

With regard to the carriage which the French described as a wagon-lit.The original belonged to Foch.I have described the replacement as a "replica"in another post which is not exactly true.The French were able to find a wagon-lit of the same model and obviously were able to furnish it close to as it was on the 11 November 1918.

As for the original, William Shirer in his Berlin Diary, notes the following entry for July 8, 1940."The historic Pullman car of Marshal Foch in which two such different armistices were signed in Compiegne Forest arrived in Berlin today.Pending final arrangements it will be placed in the Anhalter freight depot.Later, undoubtedly,it will be placed in a Berlin Museum.It seems only yesterday that I stood in Compiegne Forest watching German Army engineers remove the walls of another museum so that the car could be pushed out for the armistice talks,following this war"

It has been reported that the carriage was lost in an air raid on Berlin but I think the programme mentioned that it was finally destroyed by the SS.What is a fact is that the Anhalter railway station, a principal Berlin station of German Railways was almost destroyed in an air raid, so much so that only the facia survived and is in this condition to the present day deprived of a connection to the railway network.So it is highly likely that the reports of the carriage being destroyed in an air raid bears considerable substance.

Regarding the Hitler's attitude to the Armistice Memorial.It was Hitler's intent to destroy the memory of the German defeat and the V.T which he did by raising to the ground, the whole of the memorial area, save for the lonely statute of Foch.Hitler's plans,however, "post war" reckoned to be about 1950, was to recreate Berlin to his chosen plans under the direction of Speer.The Armistice carriage along with the Alsace- Lorraine Memorial would be displayed by the Third Reich as victors in "Germania", Hitler's new creation of the capital of Berlin.To this end, the Alsace-Lorraine Memorial which was screened by the Nazi flag for the armistice proceedings was not destroyed but at the end of the war was found dismantled and crated in Berlin with the plans unfulfilled.

Thanks for that. I will get it taped. I came across it by accident last night about half way through and found it extremely interesting.

Tony.

Hi Dave, check the link (OP) too for BBC iPlayer, not quite as good as a big screen but useful for those with just the terrestial channels.

Cheers Alan. Unfortunately, I can't suss out how to record on my DVD thingy (and I ain't staying up that late to watch it!!!), so looks like it'll have to go on my "great unwatched" list!

Dave




Ah yes! Forgot about that.

Cheers max.

Dave.

I watched this and found it really interesting and 1hr 30 mins long, a rareity and tucked away on BBC4! Once again a program that informed me and made me reralise there is plenty still for me to learn about this war.

Well done to all concerned
Arm

Interesting link here to a history of said coach Clickty Click, might be machine translated too, but still interesting. It says the coach was moved from the said siding in Berlin.

With regards to iPlayer, I like Max find the quality not brilliant on a laptop LCD. I do now use it through my PS3 (non official iPlayer) on to a 40 inch projection screen, I use the high quality setting iPlayer setting. Now I set up TV's and surround sound systems for friends and become super critical after recently setting up TV's, the last one being my parents 42 inch Pansanonic Plamsa 3 weeks ago, - the quality from the iPlayer this way is remarkably good - far far better than through the PC. I believe this to be a combination of factors, the PS3 having the best graphic chip in the world and is optimised for playing images, and the fact that LCD's are still not good as CRT or Plasma for moving images.

Apologising for rambling but the quality has shocked me, until now I did not really enjoyusing the iPlayer, I have 3 questions: 1) Has anyone linked there PC up to their TV, 2) Has anyone used a Wii, 3) Has anyone used a PS3?

So to sum up, try the iPlayer connected to your TV, it should improve your enjoyment of all the programmes one misses about the Armistice., (make sure the screen drivers are set to TV)

Thanks Alan,
I had no idea it was on !

-----------------

Mart H

I link my PC to my Panasonic TV using a lead running from the 15 pin connector on the bak of the laptop to the PC in socket on the TV. Both my laptop and TV show a slightly reduction in quality when this link is in use. I use it for showing photographs.

Mick

One quibble with this excellent programme (and I hope I'm not confusing it with the other one that was on last night) was that they twice showed a painting or stained glass panel and implied that the British military representive depicted in it was Haig, when it was quite clearly Wilson.

I thought it was a good programme but I was very uncomfortable about the line peddled about the inevitability of the First War leading to a Second usually based on the (French) idea that the Armistice was insufficiently harsh. Anything harsher would have led to a Bolshevik Germany! From the perspective of 1928 a second war was not inevitable. Versailles could be negotiated away as shown by the adjustment of reparations under the Dawes Plan; Hitler et al used the stab in the back argument etc but Germans voters were motivated by more bread and butter issues as Weimar hit the rocks of the World Economic Depression.

What a joy to have such a well-presented academic programme. Well done the BBC for commissioning it and well done especially to Professor Reynolds for his presentation and argument.

More of this sort of thing please, BBC.

With best wishes,
David

This one is residing on the hard disc and being saved up for a quiet night when the family is elsewhere.

I found , at first, prof Reynolds 'acting the parts' dialogue rather strange, but then in the end it rather made the documentary better for me.

Regards
Arm

The Saturday Telegraph TV section called him "charismatic".

Overall, I thought it a very good and unusually serious programme. There were, I suppose inevitably, a few things that seemed misleading or over-simplified in the background story, such as the animated maps which kept reminding me of 'Dad's Army'.

Anthony

For those (inc me ) that have missed this twice already, it's being shown again on BBC4 tomorrow (Thurs 13th Nov) at 23.00 and again a few hours later at 02.30. Unlike the BBC1 repeats of "My Family At War" and "A Woman in Love and War - Vera Brittain", these repeats are not marked as having Sign Language in picture.

Up there with the best for me.

Excellent production values, compelling script, and a riveting performance from David Reynolds, acting and all.

Does anyone know the Trenches where Prof Reynolds was walking through in this programme...they were overgrown with moss etc. and appeared to be in a wood..?

All in all a fascinating programme but wondered where the trenches were !

Thanks

From wikipedia.org

When Adolf Hitler received word from the French Government that they wished to negotiate an armistice, Hitler selected Compiègne Forest near Compiègne as the site for the negotiations. As Compiègne was the site of the 1918 Armistice ending the Great War with a humiliating defeat for Germany, Hitler saw using this location as a supreme moment of revenge for Germany over France. Hitler had the special train wagon come over the Compiegne where in 1918 the Germans had signed the first armistice to further humiliate the French.

In the very same railway carriage in which the 1918 Armistice was signed (removed from a museum building and placed on the precise spot where it was located in 1918), Hitler sat in the same chair that Marshal Ferdinand Foch had sat in when he faced the defeated German representatives. After listening to the reading of the preamble, Hitler – in a calculated gesture of disdain to the French delegates – left the carriage, leaving the negotiations to his OKW Chief, General Wilhelm Keitel.

The Armistice site was demolished by the Germans on Hitler's orders three days later [2]. The carriage itself was taken to Berlin as a trophy of war, along with pieces of a large stone tablet which bore the inscription (in French):

HERE ON THE ELEVENTH OF NOVEMBER 1918 SUCCUMBED THE CRIMINAL PRIDE OF THE GERMAN REICH. VANQUISHED BY THE FREE PEOPLES WHICH IT TRIED TO ENSLAVE.
The Alsace-Lorraine Monument (depicting a German eagle impaled by a sword) was destroyed and all evidence of the site was obliterated, with the notable exception of the statue of Marshal Foch: Hitler intentionally ordered it to be left intact so that it would be honouring only a wasteland. The railway carriage itself was taken to Crawinkel in Thuringia in 1945, where it was destroyed by SS troops and the remains buried.

Many thanks for the tip on this; I was at sea the first time this was shown. A really excellent programme - how refreshing to see the story told from the other side of the hill at last. For me by far the best of the 90th anniversary programmes that I've seen. Reynolds has exactly the same opinion of Ludendorff as me - bungler rather than genius.