Dear all,
Just a quick note to mention 'Walter's War' tonight at 9pm on BBC4; a dramatisation of the story of Walter Tull.
Cheers,
Taff

Watched it last night ,very thought provoking.

Hmmm …. A bit of a firecracker to handle this one. A very modern theme in a very anachronistic setting.

Did I catch the opening message correctly ? – “ little is known of his soldiers records or experiences. What follows is fiction “
If that is the case does anyone find it difficult to see the value of something like this when the details ( but not the historical basis) are a work of fiction ?

Well written and well acted. I found nothing OTT or unbelievable, which a less sensitive / more "axe to grind" approach could have been. Well done to all concerned, I reckon.

Chris C

Ienjoyed this but was taken aback when his 2 years service as an officer was added as a footnote!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Tull

A documentary on Walter Tull, "Walter Tull: Forgotten Hero" is on BBC4 at 9pm this Thursday (13th). Hopefully we'll learn more about the real Walter and his war service there. Personally, I enjoyed "Walter's War" but would appreciate something factual after all the excellent documentaries we've had in the last week.

Walter Tull forotten hero documentary tonight at 9 pm followed at 10pm by Walter's War the drama that was on last week
for anyone who missed it, BBC4

Carol

Carol,

thanks for reminding me, I had forgotten!

Regards,
Scottie

Thanks for that Carol, Sky + armed and ready.

Mick

That's ok,

i will be watching it too

Just watched the second part of this film,what an amazing man he was, where do we sign this petition then to get him he's mc

May be it was just me but I was very dissapointed with this programme, or am I being over sensitive on the whole race angle? they seemed to spend much too long trying to make points and labour on the apparent racism of the times which I feel really detracted from what a truly great man Walter Tull must have been to rise above all the obstacles he faced in his life? The programme only really took off in the last 15 minutes!

As I say may be it was just me?

Regards and best wishes to you all,
Scottie

Yes agree Scottie, i did enjoy the programme and learning about his early life, and his time as a footballer
as you know Spurs is close to my heart, and also i didn't know he was remembered on the same memorial as my Gt Grandad in Arras.

I think the presenter was hell bent on making the race point, it did seem to really upset him!

Carol

Yes I agree too. Interesting programme even so and good to see forum member AGWR featuring.

Michelle

Scottie I think your missing the point mate,how can you say they were spending to much time on the race card,when quiet clearly this was the case,and to keep him out of the public domain for so long is quiet appalling to me, and as a spurs fan myself Carol,did you no anything about him because I didn't.

Not just you, Scottie. I really thought labouring the completely obvious point that imperialist British society was racist tended to detract from the programme. I thought the presenter rather fancied himself being on Newsnight the way he cross-examined the guy from the NA (?) trying to get him to actually say there was racism.

What did surprise me, on the race issue, was the way in which the sports journalist commented on the racist abuse that Tull suffered in his first Spurs match. There are some modern day journos who could learn something about diversity from 100 years ago.

John

Care to explain that remark?

Hudsonwhistle,

thank you for thoughts about us, just the sort of ill informed comment about somebody you don't know and possibly will never meet that stifles any honest or open debate when ever race is mentioned! You should re consider your hurtful comment please? Alas another interesting thread takes a downward spiral!

As a Spurs fan I have known about this incredible man for many years (At least 20 years) as he has appeared in match programmes and publications and I have always included him in the numerous visits I have organised for friends and colleagues to Arras over the years. I even take a page from the Daily Mail that I have kept (Think its Feb 97) that tells his story and has his picture to illustrate my talk on him.

Sadly it was MY opinion that the presenter had his own agenda, I simply thought he should have focused more on Walter Tull and his incredible story.


Regards to you all
Scottie.

Just out of interest, who was 'AGWR' in the programme?

Anthony

I've not yet seen this programme, nor the biographical 'drama' from the other night, so I'll have to reserve my judgement on whether the producers got the 'race' angle right, or overdid it as Scottie and John, who have seen it, suggest. I'll not reserve judgement on hudsonwhistle's 'jackboots' (ie Nazi) comment. Totally unjustified, out of order and out of place on this Forum. An apology is in order.

Jim

I thought he did didn't he!

Jim

I've posted on this on the "other" Tull thread, but my only criticism of the race issue was the labouring of the particular point as I mention above. As I said on the other, I regard this as having been a "black history", rather than "war history" programme and it was generally pretty good.

I don't request an apology from "hudsonswhistle" and certainly don't expect one. I would, however, still very much welcome an explanation as to which of my comments in post #11 s/he thought warranted the comment.

Was it the my remark that Edwardian British society was imperialistic and racist? Or was it my praise for the manner in which the Edwardian journalist vilified those who had racially abused Tull? Or, perhaps, it was when I critcised some modern day journalists for not being as forthright in their condemnation of racism? Funny old world, innit?

John

Well, we'll have to disagree about whether that comment of mine warrants a "jackboot" comment from you. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion - much as I might think it fanciful.

BTW, if you're interested in exploring issues of racism during the War (and if you havnt already done so) you might want to do some reading about the British West Indies Regiment. Some interesting (if not surprising) stuff around.

John

The subject matter invites reasoned debate. It is not happening here!

Dave

Wasn't the point of the programme trying to focus on the fact that he never received his military cross and because he was a coloured man he never did,I think its quiet shameful to be honest, so well said Hudson

I enjoyed this but was amused that the splendidly moustachioed Serjeant Fuller was played by Ewan Stewart, who had a clean shaven upper lip when playing Rawlinson in Channel 4's Somme drama-documentary, bringing criticism from myself and others on this forum.

This is the preamble to the online petition to award Walter Tull a postmumous MC.


PETITION IN SUPPORT OF WALTER TULL

2nd Lieutenant Walter Tull was the first Black infantry officer in the British Army. He was the first Black infantry officer to lead White troops into battle. He was the first Black infantry officer to be mentioned in despatches and was the first Black infantry officer to be recommended for a Military Cross, which he never received.

Walter Tull was the first Northampton Town footballer to enlist in British Expeditionary Force, in December 1914, joining the Footballers' Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment. He was commissioned an officer in May, 1917, at a time when the Manual of Military Law stated that 'aliens' (including 'Negroes') can be commissioned in an honorary rank but must not 'exercise any actual command or power'.

During the First World War the army broke their rules when commissioning Walter because he was an outstanding soldier and they were short of officers. In doing so they set a precedent. Ironically, Walter was probably not given his MC because of this: once the recommendation had been passed further down the (bureaucratic) line it was realised that, as a 'Negroe' Walter was prohibited from 'exercising...command and power' and therefore, de facto, could not be given his Military Cross for leading his Company of (White) troops on a dangerous mission into enemy territory and bringing them back unharmed.

In recent communications with the Ministry of Defence they have argued they cannot award Walter his Military Cross because his case now falls outside the time period allowed for posthumous acknowledgement and, if they did break this rule for him, they would be setting a precedent.

A precedent was set in 1917 by promoting Tull to 2nd Lieutenant because it was expedient and suited the army. A unique precedent should now be set in awarding Walter his long overdue and much deserved medal for bravery in a war in which he made the ultimate sacrifice.

It is manifestly unjust for Walter to be denied his medal because his character, ability and popularity raised him to a level at which he and his kind were barred. To be denied his MC because of his strengths is not only unfair but mocks the notion of justice.

We call upon Parliament, through this petition, to correct this historical error and posthumously award 2nd Lieutenant Walter Tull his Military Cross.


_________________________

For the record, I wrote to the organisers some months ago, explaining my reasons for declining to support their campaign. They did not bother to respond, and I can only assume (like another bunch I could name) that the only opinions they care to entertain are those that echo their own - unlike the GWF, where all points of view are welcome provided they are presented in a civilised manner - which brings me to Hudsonswhistle's posts.


Hudsonswhistle, please explain your response to John.

Explain yourself Kate! you have just listed the petition in its entirety, it couldn't be any clearer,and you then wrote to them telling them why you would not support their campaign, and you have the audacity to wonder why they would not reply to your letter,dear oh dear.

QED.

I see you've now amended your comment from just "Try that one". Even more fanciful, but my response remains as earlier except that, no, I've never been employed in the police service. Would it matter in some way if I had been?

John

I think it was certainly one of the points - although I don't recall anyone showing evidence that his name had even been submitted for an MC award.

Does anyone know if there is any such evidence?

John

May I request that points on Walter Tull's MC campaign debate are continued on the dedicated thread here

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...25&start=25


We'll leave this one open for commentary on the TV programme etc

It showed the recommendation quiet clearly

Was that not the Major General's congratulatory letter (which were scattered round almost like confetti)?

Or did I miss something else? Was it in his service file?

John

Anthony
He is Andrew Riddoch, author of When The Whistle Blows

(think I have the title correct)

Michelle

What you mean that piece of confetti that was quiet clearly held up to the camera and the same piece of confetti that the camera zoomed in on,yeah that's the one!So it wasn't a citation from the Major telling him that he wishes to place on record he's appreciation for he's actions for Gallantry and coolness in leading a successful attack across the river ,I think you should perhaps watch the programme again don't you!

Mate don't bother some people just can't be helped im afraid

Oh here we go,lol, so you didn't see the documentary at all last then did you Ms Wills not the drama the documentary
come on dear keep up lol

Oh, you're back Hudsonswhistle.

The opening post refers to "Walter's War' tonight at 9pm on BBC4; a dramatisation of the story of Walter Tull." If we are talking at cross purposes, I apologise - and I am not afraid to say so.

Now how about an explanation of your 'jackboot' remark?


PS I'm Mrs actually.

Agreed, Kate, an explanation of that remark from Hudsonswhistle really would be useful.

Jim

I will apologise to the people concerned in private Mrs Wills, but if you had read the thread correctly you should have noticed this on post 7

"Walter Tull forgotten hero documentary tonight at 9 PM followed at 10pm by Walter's War the drama that was on last week
for anyone who missed it, BBC 4


Carol "


Ok my dear

Thanks for the confirmation. I thought I had it right.

These congratulatory letters from the Major General commanding a Division were the most common form of acknowledgement of an act of gallantry or "good work" and certainly wouldn't necessarily lead to a name being submitted for a medal. Did it say his name was being put forward for a medal? If not, I hope the campaign to get Walter an MC isn't relying on just that and has some actual evidence that his name was actually put forward. They'd end up looking damn silly if not.

BTW, I see a number of websites also state that Tull was "Mentioned in Despatches". I know the search machine on the London Gazette website isnt the cleverest, but I can't find this either. Is it there? Anyone know if there's anything relevent in his service file (I know much of their original contents have been scrapped)?

And just so we're not at cross purposes, I didnt watch the drama, only the documentary.

Thank you John,your right it doesn't say he's name was put forward for a medal, only that this was usually the case,their point being that the latter usually followed the citation

regarding

it wasn't directed at you

Pals

I've received a PM from hudsonswhistle who had reread my various contributions to this subject and has apologised for suggesting they had racist tones. That issue between us is closed as far as I am concerned.

John

Fair enough, John.

Jim

I found the documentary to be Ok, a touch over-occupied with chip-on-the-shoulder racism comments rather than the magnitude of Tull's achievements (so I regard the Newsnight analogy to be fair comment), but Ok nonetheless. However, I found the drama immediately following it to be pretty poor fare indeed - I thought the obvious low-budget could have been overcome by a much stronger script with which to explore in more depth the issues raised by the documentary. In the event, the drama left me feeling let down - the documentary fuelled my appetite, the drama failed to satiate my hunger.

And, I would remind hudsonwhistle that, historically, those who would stifle any and all opposition to their own views wore jackboots - perhaps, in reality, it is he who subconsciously wears them?


Cheers-salesie.

Don't even go there

Just following your lead, mate - and thanks for quickly proving my point, mate!


Cheers-salesie.

I would just like to say that I have received a very nice PM from Hudson which is very much appreciated. From my perspective matter closed. thank you.

Regards and best wishes,
Scottie.

Then perhaps the basic premise of the programme was at fault.

Many, many officers and men were recommended for awards and didn't receive one. That is a fact. Was Tull recommended for an award? I have yet to see any evidence that he was.

If he was recommended for an award, is there any evidence that his colour was the reason it was not awarded?

I despise racism in any form, but please lets not drift off into fantasy in order to fit an agenda.