In Kim's recent thread on Colsterdale - Popular Memorial For Such an Out of the Way Place, a jolly day out!! - a place I had never heard of before, I made the suggestion that a simple list of Great War sites in the UK, sorted by county, would be a useful resource. If you happened to be in a different part of the country from your normal area - it would be a quick guide to interesting sites that could be visited.

I wouldn't propose it included war memorials as these are already well covered elsewhere National Inventory but "off the beaten track" sites like the remains of Colsterdale camp that are already familiar to local members but will have passed the rest of us by. Near me, the airship hangars at Cardington might be another example Wikipedia - Cardington.

The end result, if it got off the ground, would be a listing that gave county, nearest town, post code if available, map reference, general description & any access notes/comments, etc. It could be posted to a thread in this sub-forum & updated as new entries got added.

I am more than happy to collate the information if there is a demand for this. PM me with any suggestions or post them to this thread and we can see how it goes.

Regards
Brian

Postscript
The sites to date are now held here - Great War Sites in the UK - displayed on Google Maps

Brian: are you thinking of sites where there's still something still to be seen apart from the landscape? In Wiltshire there's nothing left of some of the Great War camps and airfields (eg Stonehenge and Lake Down airfields). What about Tidworth Barracks, where some of the buildings built very early in the 20th century can be seen from public roads; their names (eg Jellalabad, Candahar) crop up in quite a few WWI memoirs - would these qualify?

If enough people chip in, your thread could get massive and your task of collation prove quite demanding!

We do have, of course, a very long thread about Hospitals in the UK, and you may feel that a cross-reference to this will suffice. Many of the buildings do survive. (I confess that I seldom look at this thread nowadays, even when there's a new post, because it's so so cumbersome to navigate and I suspect some of the info has been duplicated over the years.)

Mooonraker

Moonraker

Yes, probably sites that you can still see I guess. Sites which have now vanished could be included but I think you would need something concrete (sorry!) to hang a visit on.

I am happy to try pulling it together as I would find it useful myself. There must be other gems like Colsterdale or Cardington dotted around that would provide an excuse for either a visit or a stop when passing through.

With the passing of time, it can be nice sometimes to revisit the landscape that the soldiers knew.

Brian

Nice idea Brian.

This might be a nice start.
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...0camp&st=25

Neil

Neil

Thank you for that - I was actually thinking of that thread but couldn't for the life of me remember the name of the camp!

Brian

Excellent. Glad to have helped.

Neil

I think a Google Maps solution may be the answer. Two approaches are possible:

1. Hosted on Google maps as with this site of Flanders CWGC sites. These can be set up to be "collaborative" so others can chip in, and the resultant maps can be either public or "ex-directory".
2. Website hosted as in this list of WF Accommodation that I produced a while ago. It will not "fit" within a bulletin board and relies on a bit of webspace to host it. But the filtering and searching functions are much more powerful.

For the later, the actual "data" is easy to sort out; a sample of the Accommodation data file looks like:

{ type : "Location",
label : "Ariane Hotel",
category : "Hotel ****",
region : "Ypres Salient",
place : "Ieper",
address : "Slachthuisstraat 58, 8900 Ieper",
addressLatLng : "50.854441317505355, 2.8844475746154785",
telephone : "32 57 21 82 18",
facsimile : "32 57 21 87 99",
email : "info@ariane.be",
website : "http://www.ariane.be",
notes : "Car park. Situated in Ieper town centre"
},

The trick is to get the colons, commas, double inverted commas and curly brackets in the right place. The format is relatively free and most categories are non-compulsory. There is a tool available for finding the addressLatLng by means of a point and click approach.
It is also possible for something to have two entries under a particular category:

{ type : "Location",
label : "De Hollemeersch",
category : "Hotel",
region : "Ypres Salient",
place : ["Dranouter","Kemmel-Heuvelland"],
address : "Lettingstraat 58-60, 8950 Dranouter",
addressLatLng : "50.7745459898319, 2.8127574920654297",
telephone : "057 44.44.06",
facsimile : "057 44.74.86",
email : "info@hollemeersch.be",
website : "http://hollemeersch.be/"
},

(Note the use of square brackets to hold two entries).

HTH (or gives food for thought)
David

David

Thanks - definitely food for thought.

When I was thinking of the number of fields you would ideally need - it does start to make it more difficult to "publish" a simple list. A Google Maps or Google Earth solution would be much more elegant. You could still have a very simple listing on a thread but then link to the hosted version.

I use Earth quite a lot for recording locations personally but have never looked into the idea of an "open" set of pointers held on a website for general access/addition. I will have a look at the 2 examples you quoted and see if I can get the hang of what they're doing. I'll also probably need to pick your brains at some point too when I've got my head round it.

Lots to think about!

Brian

I'll be happy to help - I suspect others will contribute as well (possibly via the technology section of this forum). This Thread ("My Maps" in Google Maps - Great War Forum ) may be of interest.
On my website, I have a series of different experimental approaches to this technology.

David

Just bumping this up to see if I can get anymore sites suggested. So far we have:

County/Location/Description
Bedfordshire/Cardington/Cardington Airship Works
Conwy/Abergele/Kinmel Camp
North Yorkshire/Colsterdale/Colsterdale Camp

There must be some more hidden gems out there...

Brian

Brian,

Just "thrown" this together as an experiment on Google Maps; I hope I have it set up so that others can add places. Please post comments so that we can all see how effective this might be; if it works we can tidy it up and possibly set up some suggestions for standard comments for each place; if it does not it can be abandoned.

David

David

That's it exactly - but a couple of questions

- I couldn't see how to add a location (was going to add Kinmel Camp)

- How would you "earmark" (possibly not the right word) the collection of sites so you can navigate to them - I input Abergele into the search area - which it found, but in doing so dropped the 4 sites you had already input - does that make sense? Issue being to keep the sites while inputting another one. Or do you find it in another Maps window & then open the "sites" collection & navigate to the desired location?

Regards
Brian

Not convinced I made a lot of sense in the 2nd point - does this make anymore?

1. Starting point is a web address that takes you to the collection of sites - this could be posted somewhere on the GWF for others to access/add to.
2. Then the ability to add a new site to the collection & "save" it
3. The mechanics of searching for a location without "losing" the collection

Brian

Brian,

You might find this of use. It's a computer drawing of the kinmel camp layout, imposed over a google earth map.
If you'd like a full copy send me your email address.

Hello Brian,

Although not confined solely to WW1, have you come across this project before?

If you navigate from the Intro page to the Overview and Stage 2, there is a downloadable database (Excel).
Sites are referenced by National Grid.
The reports are well worth a read as well.

It's something that you can sift through and check out at leisure.

Phil

OK, feeling my way through this (using a different account to test this - it is otherwise hard to test collaborating with yourself!):

1) you need to sign in - which means you need to set up a Google Account (free and relatively easy).
2) you then need to click on the link (on the Great War Sites in the UK map) that appears saying "Save to My Maps".
3) Pan/zoom around the map to get to the place wher you want a new placemark.
4) On the left hand pane (My Maps) there is an Edit button available - click on this and the map then acquires a toolbar allowing you to add points, lines and areas. Strongly suggested that you pan and zoom into position before going into edit mode (because if you don't you risk dislodging markers left by others!)
5) Select the relevant icon on the tool bar and click on the place you want to add. In both cases you then fill in the info window*. Note that if you switch into Rich Text Mode you are then able to add links. Clicking on the icon allows you to select another.
6) Then Save and Click Done when done!

Note: it is also possible to use search to find a place and then commandeer it by selecting "add to my maps" and "Selecting Great War Sites in the UK".

* Can I suggest that in the info window you include the address (in case the placemark gets dislodged by someone else), a website address and link, and a brief description (too big a description and the info window will swamp the map and may not fit on screen).

Let me know if that does not work and I will have another go - although I have just added Folkestone Harbour station following these instructions.

David
(minor?! edit 19:48, clarification 23:41 - complete rehash 24/01/09 19:14, tidying of wording 28/01/09)

Thanks, PM sent

Brian

OK, again feeling my way and assuming I have understood your question.

1) The original link is to the "collection" (the map).
2) When you save it to "My Maps", you get a listing of your maps on the left hand side with click boxes to allow you to switch maps on or off.
3) If you have more than one map (initially of course you will have just the "Great War Sites in the UK" map), clicking on it will select it so that all its places get listed on the left and you get the Edit box referred to in my previous posting. You can only edit one map at a time.

HTH
David

Email sent

Neil

Vimy Ridge Farm

The above link describes a farm purchased and renamed by the father of a Notts and Derbys officer killed on the Somme in the countryside near to Nottingham. The farm was intended as a rehabilitation centre to retrain wounded soldiers giving them agricultural trades with a tree-lined approach as a living memorial to the men who fell with him.

The Fovant Badges in Wiltshire - regimental badges cut into the chalk by garrisoned soldiers

http://www.fovantbadges.com

Alan

Phil

Thanks for the pointer to the Army Camp site - needs a good look over the weekend.

JMOHA & Alan

Two more fascinating sites - exactly the kind of places that I was thinking of.

David

Right, I will have a look at what you suggest over the weekend & see if I can get the hang of it - but this does seem to be the way to go - particularly as you can put a link on the note to websites giving more information. The proof of the pudding will be, I guess if I can add to the collection of sites you have input. I will PM you on how I get on so we can keep the technical side off the thread & leave it to gather more UK sites.

Thanks again to everyone who has had an input.

Brian

It should keep you busy Brian.

Thank you David, from me also. I've managed to start my own map off with your instructions.

Phil

Glad to have been of help, but if your map is of UK Great War sites, you are welcome to commandeer space on the map I started.

David

A few more that come to mind - I'll just post the details here, a quick forum search will give loads of information

The Stanley Spencer memorial at Sandham, Hampshire - http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/...orialchapel.htm

Mells Church, Somerset - the Horner Memorial Chapel and Sassoon's grave - http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/gre...-great-war.html

Royal Victoria Hospital, Netley, Hampshire - http://www.netleyabbey.info/Royal%20Victoria%20Hospital.htm

Alan

Alan - Thanks for those, please keep them coming.

Phil - I agree with David - if you are looking at UK Great War sites - let's keep them together

David - I will have a go at adding these new sites

Alan's posting of the Stanley Spencer memorial at Sandham also reminded me of Neville Lytton's murals at Balcombe, featured in "Not Forgotten"

Brian

I have amended the initial post in this thread to contain the list of sites submitted to date.

Is there a way of pasting in a table format so the list is more user friendly?

Brian

I've tried using a table with no luck, i ended up using print screen and cropping.
Did you get the email?

Neil

Brian and David,

Mine is Forest Row Camp in East Sussex, plus officers that died from the surrounding houses etc.

All that remains is a monument, dedicated in 1926. The huts were removed around 1920 and the site flattened.
Today it is part of a golf course.

When I've polished my map up a bit, I'll post the link (that was the hardest part, had to email the URL to myself in the end) and you can judge for yourself if you want to include the camp site.

Phil

Neil

I did thanks - that is a great piece of work

Phil - I will wait to see your link but if there's something there to see still, I don't see why we shouldn't add it to the list.

Regards
Brian

Excellent cheers Brian.

If you need any photo's from Kinmel Camp let me know.

Neil

Like this:

List of sites to date (24 Jan 09)
County _________Location ______Description
Bedfordshire .. Cardington ... Cardington Airship Works
Conwy ......... Abergele ..... Kinmel Camp
Durham ........ Hartlepool ... Heugh Gun Battery
East Sussex ... Forest Row ... Forest Row Camp memorial
Hampshire ..... Netley ....... Royal Victoria Military Hospital Chapel
Hampshire ..... Sandham ...... Stanley Spencer murals, Sandham Memorial Chapel
Hertfordshire . Berkhamstead . Kitcheners Field
Kent .......... Folkestone ... Harbour Station
North Yorkshire Colsterdale .. Colsterdale Camp
Nottinghamshire Kinoulton .... Vimy Ridge Farm
Somerset ...... Mells ........ Horner Memorial Chapel & Siegfried Sassoon's grave
Tyne & Wear ... Sunderland ... Hammerton House Red Cross Hospital
Tyne & Wear ... Sunderland ... Hylton Castle Camp
West Sussex ... Balcombe ..... Neville Lytton's murals, Balcombe Victory Hall
Wiltshire ..... Fovant ....... Fovant Badges
Wiltshire ..... Tidworth ..... Tidworth Barracks
?

If it is: Change typeface to Courier New (or other non-proportional typeface) and replace any double spaces with a suitable spacing character. Probably easier than going into html mode and creating an html table.

David

I've added Forest Row Camp memorial, as I see you've already got it on the list. I'll add a description later.

Are the icons yours David, because I couldn't see them?
I'll leave you to change it to a suitable one.

Phil

Phil,

Glad to see some-one else adding (reassures me that I have set it up correctly!).

When you are in Edit mode (clicking the Edit button in the top of the Left hand pane), you can click on the place name (or its icon in the map) and the detail box opens in Edit mode (over the position in the map), allowing you to add further detail (including links if you select Rich Text Mode) and to change the icon (by clicking on the icon and selecting an alternative - I'm using the Tent like icon for Camps).

When done, select OK in the place detail dialogue box, and then Save and Done in the list of places pane.

HTH
David

I have added the three IWM sites with Great War Associations (London, Duxford, and Manchester) to our Google Map.

I have also hopefully replaced the Forest Row Camp marker than I accidentally dislodged when manipulating the map whilst in edit mode! I suggest that to avoid this happening again we pan and zoom in the map before going into Edit mode - and on each place-mark include an address to assist in putting things back if we do dislodge them. I have amended the instructions in post 16.

David

Sites added to the map today:

Museums Click to view attachment
Rotherham: York and Lancaster Regimental Museum
Dorset: Tank Museum, Bovington
London: National Army Museum
Lichfield: Staffordshire Regimental Museum

Chapels & Churches Click to view attachment
Somerset: Mells Parish Church
Hampshire: Sandham Memorial Chapel
Hampshire: Royal Victoria Hospital, Netley

Other
Co Down: Helen's Tower, Bangor

Please feel free to add further sites (see instructions on earlier post - post 16). I have added some custom icons (see above). If they do not show when you select "add custom icons", you can pick up them up from the following locations:
Museums: Click to view attachment http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bkklldXkb0w/SX78aSA_...z_u8/Museum.gif
Churches: Click to view attachment http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bkklldXkb0w/SX-X5Q6o...11PM/Church.gif
Camps: Click to view attachment http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bkklldXkb0w/SX8Dheb4...TCrlEM/Camp.gif
Gun batteries: Click to view attachment http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bkklldXkb0w/SX8IoEfV...G9LVIko/Gun.gif
Hospitals: Click to view attachment http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bkklldXkb0w/SX8KANqr...CY/Hospital.gif
Ports: Click to view attachment http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bkklldXkb0w/SX8LMDwc...fv6TbA/Ship.gif
(Note that the Forum software abbreviates the links above, but the full link is behind the label, so right click and select "Copy Link Location" (in Firefox) or similar in other browsers.)

Site Usage:
I have added museums that have WW1 links; I am not sure if it was the intention to add "modern day" sites to the list. If the consensus is that museums should not be on the list (for fear of swamping it), they can be moved to another map. (One of the advantages of Google maps is that the "maps" are actually only overlays on maps or satellite photos, and as it is therefore possible to have multiple overlays showing at any one time, so we can split sites of interest across a number of "maps" without loss of functionality.)

We originally said we would exclude memorials (again because they are well documented elsewhere and might swamp other sites), to this I unilaterally added drill halls (for the same reason - they might go on a separate map?). Whilst the chapels above do contain memorials they also contain other WW1 connected artefacts (such as original grave markers).

David

Where have you obtained your information on drill halls? Between us, Graeme and I have visited hundreds of drill halls and even more sites where we've found that the drill hall has been demolished. Forum members have helped, too.

Are you going to include sites where they were (in which case people might well find themselves in a car park or a supermarket) or just extant ones?

To give you an idea of numbers, Graeme has recorded over 3600 unit locations, which include drill stations. Some of these are now-unknown buildings (for example, a farmer's barn), some are extant buildings (eg schools, town halls, church halls, corn exchanges) and some are purpose-built premises which to all appearances are drill halls (eg Mountsorrel). Do you propose to highlight these?

Another problem is that drill halls may be simply recorded on the lines of there being a drill hall of X company in a town, with no address. Where we or others have visited them, or where we have investigated them in the library or elsewhere, so that we can confidently give the address, we have stated it and sourced the information. Many of these constitute mini-research projects in their own right and we haven't finished. In the absence of an exact address, there is potential for people to waste time visiting a town with no idea where to start looking, and many regimental museums are useless at knowing this sort of information.

While I think it's a very good idea to draw attention to these often-forgotten buildings, and I would hope that people would think of the Project and take photos or pass on updated information, I feel it's a rather more nebulous area than memorials or museums which are more fixed in the present urban landscape.


On a separate note, I would add a note of caution about counties' Historic Environment Records. Some of these are plain wrong. Some have been constructed from satellite maps by people who have never visited the site in question and who have only the most tenuous grasp of history. We found one which dated the First World War memorials to 1904 (not a typo). If there's any doubt, find separate corroboration. However, they are a very useful starting point for anyone who wishes to look round an area, because everything of note is supposed to be recorded. All counties should have one and I have a list of them all should anyone wish to see it.

Gwyn

Gwyn

One of the initial decisions in trying to get this project going was to exclude war memorials & drill halls as the feeling was that they were already covered much more efficiently elsewhere (i.e. your site for drill halls) and that duplication of effort would be the result. Having said that, there is absolutely no reason why you cannot use the same methodology to set up on the same website a "drill hall" overlay that can sit next to the "Great War Sites in the UK" overlay - that way visitors to the site can switch on one or the other. To hold both sets of data in the same overlay would probably swamp the map display. If you want to proceed along this route, I am sure David can advise on how to set up the "Drill halls" overlay.

As for your point on existing vs. disappeared sites, the other basic principle was that there should be something physical to see. The disappeared sites could be added later but as you suggested , standing in a Tesco's car park does make the exercise slightly more intangible. If the "Drill Halls" overlay gets going, there's nothing to stop you showing existing halls in one colour and the sites of halls now gone in another.

Regards
Brian

The exclusion of drill halls wasn't stated on the first page and I simply picked up on the recent reference to them, which was somewhat ambiguous to me as a first time reader of the idea.

I haven't the time to do any map making at the moment, I'm afraid. I can see its value for a future project.

As you say, where a drill hall is known to be extant and has been visited, there is or will be information on our website, which has still a vast amount of material to come.

I confess I've been slow to contribute more than my one token suggestion (Tidworth Barracks) because I was struggling with some of the suggested technology and I would like to see how this project progresses. I would need quite some time to sort out the details that others are providing for their suggestions. But here's a basic list for Wiltshire:

Kiwi chalk hill badge, near Sling Barracks, Bulford
Garrison churches at Tidworth and Bulford
Australian Imperial Force hill badge, Codford
Pre-WWI "aeroplane sheds", Larkhill Camp (probably the only part of the camp that was used in WWI to be seen today, apart from cuttings through which the military railway ran)
Track bed and retaining wall of Fovant Military Railway (possibly on private land)
Balloon hangars, Rollestone Camp
Hangars on the site of RFC Yatesbury
Bustard Hotel - HQ of Lieutenant-General Edwin Alderson, commander of the First Canadian Contingent, 1914-15 - still a pub!
Remains of wireless station used to track Zeppelins and monitor wireless traffic, near (and on!) North Wilts Golf Club, near Devizes (hut, mounting blocks, bits of chain)
Significant numbers of war graves at Fovant, Codford, Sutton Veny, Durrington, Baverstock, Yatesbury and Tidworth.
WWI camp railway platform at Chisledon (not to be confused with the later camp station directly on the MSWJR line)
The former Le Marchant Barracks (Wiltshire Regiment depot), Devizes
Greenland(s) Farm, between Tilshead and Larkhill Camp (buildings used as artillery depot)

I could add the sites of various practice trenches, but remains of these can be hard to discern. The best in Wiltshire , and probably in Britain, are those on Beacon Hill, above Bulford (map reference 205442)

There are also many houses of various sizes that were were used as hospitals, notably Longleat, Wilton and Greenhill House, Sutton Veny, but I don't think there's any evidence of this to be seen. Buildings used for billeting are also probably outside the scope of this project.

Siegfried Sassoon lived at Heytesbury House, but after the war.

Charles Hamilton Sorley memorial signpost, Poulton Down, near Ogbourne St George, (map reference 209717)

There may be RFC buildings used in the war at Upavon, Netheravon and Old Sarum airfields.

I also know of several WWI buildings that were relocated after the war, but one is never sure if they're still standing.

And just outside Wiltshire, in Hampshire, original buildings of RFC Lopcombe Corner (in the fork of the A343 and A30)

Sorry this is a bit scanty, but it's the best I can do at the moment.

Many of these sites (and a few others) have been mentioned in the Forum over the years and a search (and some luck) may yield further information to members.

Moonraker

Gwyn

Sorry - we possibly hadn't made the exclusion of drill halls clear enough.

Regards
Brian

Moonraker

Thank you, that's a great list. I will see how many of these I can locate & will add the relevant pins on the map. When you get the chance, have a look at the results and see if they are accurate. I will also add brief descriptive notes as available.

Regards
Brian

Brian

Sorry the list was a bit superficial. Unusually for me, I had a lull in my activities today so I was able to compile the above off the top of my head.


Have you realised what you have taken on yet!?

Moonraker

I have now added a link in the first post on this thread - this will take you to the Google Maps site that is accumulating the UK Great War sites submitted to date.

New sites can either be posted to this thread or can be added directly to the map by following David's instructions in Post #16.

Regards
Brian

Quite possibly! But I still think it's a worthwhile exercise so let's give it a go.

Brian

Such is the nature of Web 2.0 collaborative projects - for that is what this is! Brian made a suggestion, I suggested some technological solutions, then I put up a straw man so that we could see if one of those ideas worked and now we are getting suggestions for sites to go on the map. The early stages are always difficult because unless a few (Brian and Myself so far plus a few one-off contributors) keep the momentum going it does not work - but it is exhausting!

It can also cause confusion, have people feel that others are treading on their toes, and is very reliant on good-will. The project is "open" to anyone who knows about it and who acquires a (free) Google Account. So far it is only known to members of the GWF and in due course those who see GWF postings appear in Google (when that happens I think I may throw the switch that allows Google to directly index it - when it potentially becomes directly "open" to anyone). There is a danger that it might get spammed (I take occasional backups), that it might get taken in a totally different direction to Brian's original idea (if I am already doing that with the inclusion of museums, Brian is being very tolerant), but unless we let it take its own direction Brian and I will end up doing all the work.

Ideally others will see how easy it is to add locations and we will see the numbers of contributors and sites increase - 15 odd sites per county (if we all followed on from Moonraker's contributions for Wiltshire) would be quite a resource! My (specific) guidance notes are on post 16; relevant (but general) Google Help is also available.

Please feel free to PM me (or anyone else who appears to know what is happpening!), if you want further help (or you have scrambled something and want to get it unscrambled).

David

See, Brian and I are already tripping over each other!

Brian

Excellent idea and one that will take off I am sure. Not wishing to detract from your work but can I point out that Kinmel Camp is not in Abergele/Conwy but in Bodelwyddan/Denbighshire.

Someone has erroneously put the former on Wikipedia. It's true that Abergele is in Conwy County but the Camp is not in Abergele. It's in Bodelwyddan (I'm not technically minded enough to challenge it)

Here are a couple of links to support the latter.

http://clwydacf.org.uk/Files/Silver%20Exped%20menu.pdf

http://www.denbighshire.gov.uk/EC/place&am...92?OpenDocument

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=96084

Hywyn

Hywyn

I bow to your superior knowledge! (Teach me to rely on Wikipedia...). I'll change it.

Many thanks
Brian

A rural development ("LEADER") group in Pembrokeshire has been working to produce a catalogue of military history sites in the county. The guide is being done settlement by settlement and whilst many sites are nineteenth century or WW2 there are some WW1 sites, e.g. the Royal Dockyard at Pembroke Dock, and the WW1 seaplane station at Fishguard.

The guide, which includes map references, can be downloaded from
http://www.planed.org.uk/Communities/sop_64.htm

Gwyn (a different one to earlier posts!)