Hello,
I don't know if it has been treated recently but the president from the general council of the Meuse wants to remove from the ground of Verdun the 80 000 soldiers who are still there. He wants to make a "new memories tourism" and to convert the battle field for this goals.
If it's happen it's going to change the landscape of the battlefield for ever. It's a real profanation of the last sepulcher of these brave soldiers.
If you want the full article I can post it a word version in french.

You can sign a petition against this crazy thing here:
http://www.mesopinions.com/Contre-l-exhuma...signer-petition




Bye,
Mathieu

Hi Mathieu and welcome to the forum. I appreciate your concern but whether this mammoth task is to be undertaken or not is a very complex problem indeed. The repercussions will spread over a very wide area and affect a large number of French people. There are questions of conservation, remembrance, regional employment to name but a few which spring immediately to mind. Certainly, I should be very grateful to be kept up to date on what is happening as this project moves forward but as a citizen of the U.K. I would be very reluctant to sign any petition which seeks to influence how the French deal with the Battlefield of Verdun. I should think that if any foreign nation were to become involved, it should be the Germans. There must be many of their Unbekannter lying in the soil there.

Salut Mathieu et bienvenue au forum

this project is crazy and monsieur Barcellini seems to be a mythomane who wants to make a name for himself

the cost alone and the technical resources required must make it totally impossible. in the current economic climate the Conseil général de la Meuse must have many more pressing things to spend its money on. He is looking forward to the 100th anniversary of Verdun, but this kind of thing could never be done in 70 years, never mind seven. It is giving false hope to families that a relative's remains may be turned up, when very little will identifiable will be left of most of them. Does M. Barcellini want to go over the whole battlefield with an army of bulldozers, or set teams of archaeologists scraping at the ground? And what about the Germans who are unearthed? Not to mention all the bones in the ossuary. C'est totalement farfelu, and I hope monsieur Adam is of the same opinion.

cheers Martin B

Bonjour Mathieu.

If I hadn't read this in black and white, I would never have believed it. Martin pretty much echoes my feelings on it.

Hello,
I agree with you but in France some politics are "bored" with the heritage of the WWI. It's the case of the mayor of Verdun and others. I don't think it's possible too but since 15 years we see a lot of very strange things happen. For example a supermarket openned almost on the field of a national cimetery...
For a family point of view, in France it's different than in US or GB. The families are not involved in the search of their ancestor who fought during WWI. Most of the time they do not mind about that you just have to see the difference between people who wear the poppy in GB and the people who wear the "bleuet" in France for November 11th.
Cheers,
Mathieu

I do believe it is 30th Jan, not April 1st.
Totaly impracticle, not worth our concern, 80,000 it ain't going to happen..............
They would have to de-forest the place, good grief !
Bob Grundy

I can imagine the French UEO people are going to be overjoyed at the increased workload, dealing with the munitions rediscovered, but e-thing will make a fortune as a 1,000 tons of scrap is flogged of at the same time.

Leave the lads in the ground, they've earned their rest eternal

G

I agree,in a way but,the French dont seem to have ever worried too much on the subject of their dead so...it's just politics.There are a (small) growing number of French that are showing an increasing interest for la Grande Guerre but,if you talk to the guys in Arras & find out all the hard work they had to do to get Wellington done or the Vimy/Bullecourt candle trail finalised,you'll see that they are a very dedicated few.
Before the coup de grace arrives ,the French had the same right to recall a body after the war,just like the Americans did.
The unknowns(as they must predominately be)have more than likely lost their family ties,sadly.Too long ago & too much of a damaged battlefield plus,speaking from experiance,it just is not viable.
Politics.

Is the association between Verdun and Petain part of the problem?

What a very sad thing. Goes to prove the differences in how the different nationalities deal with their dead, and then mix in some politics. OOOh la la!!!!!

Hope he fails.

LEST WE FORGET (whether they are English, German or French or whatever....)

Peter

Re Bob Grundy's comment,

"They would have to de-forest the place, good grief !"

They have already started the process of returning the post war coniferous woods back to the natural deciduous forests. Though I had heard they were reconsidering this policy.

Anyone whoi has seen theis process will know they must have disturbed hundreds of graves. I dont think the deforestation issue will be an issue if this goes ahead, which I doubt?

Regards

TT

Thank you Mr TT for that info, I was not aware of this scheme, the last time I was
in the area was 1983, must go back one day..............
Bob

Am I dreaming, or did I read this thread correctly?

What is monsieur Barcellini doing... Smoking the substance the Dutch openly sell? Using an English phrase here, sums up the whole idiot fiasco... 'He's lost it!' Over here in the USA, there is a simple phrase which means very much the same as the English one quoted = 'Stuck on stupid!'.. says it all I think.

Seph

I would guess they are trying to get a general feeling into what people may believe to the idea. Here on the GWF people are shocked , i wonder what the general public feel ..if they indeed feel anything.

Don't worry, M. Barcellini didn't suggest that the authorities were going to dig up the whole battlefield although that's what it sounded like at first. He expressed himself unclearly - or, at least, the reporters didn't understand him - and on 2 February an explanation of his meaning was published in the Est-Republicain (the local Verdun newspaper). What was meant was that any body that was found on the battlefield would be treated with respect and that every attempt would be made through archeological procedures to discover the identity of the man concerned and to contact relatives. That makes sense, at least, which the first report did not.

However, the newspaper only spoke of 'poilus', which is the term generally used to indicate French soldiers. Maybe the term was meant to include Germans but that was not made clear.

As regards the forests at Verdun, the national forestry office decided some years ago to return the area to the sort of deciduous forest that existed in the area before 1914. However, 9/10 of the battlefield was not forested at the time and it to do so will mean gradually cutting down or digging up what is there and replanting. I personally don't like bulldozers and heavy logging equipment used in the forests that cover the former battlefields. Bodies and bones certainly do come up in the course of forestry work. As the forests in the area are worth money and as the desire is to produce as 'economic' a forest as possible, I personlly can't see work stopping for bodies unless, for example, a common grave is discovered with the remains of several men.

About a month ago I stopped close to Haudromont Quarries, at the bottom of Death Ravine, to watch a logging machine at work. It was the sort of machine that could pull a pine tree out of the ground and cut it into chunks in about 5 minutes. In the time I stood to watch it, the machine and it's one driver pulled up and cut up about 6 trees. The area was one of intense fighting in the summer of 1916 and I wondered sadly how many men were still lying in the soil. The problem is that forestry work is subcontracted and 'economic' forestry is important. In addition to the trees being pulled up, the ground is being destroyed. There are still fascinating traces of camps in the area and I would hate to see them destroyed like that, quite apart from the fact that the whole area is the final resting place of very many men.

I would add that in September 2008, work by the local association that is preserving and restoring the Butte de Vauquois uncovered 28 German graves in one site on the hillside. The bodies were immediately turned over to the authorities and two have been identified. I would like to think that the same would happen at Verdun.

National attitudes are different. When the Alain-Fournier site was excavated inear Les Eparges n the early 90s, the families of the men buried with him were contacted but almost none of them came to the men's reburial at St. Remy la Calonne. I can't imagine not attending the reburial of someone in my family who had disappeared in the War but some people are just not interested.

Christina

Neither can I.
But I'm afraid the vast majority doesn't care one bit. Certainly when it involves traveling hundreds of miles to attend a funeral.

Roel

A lot of people today don't even know who their grand father's were and probably don't care.

Yes, you're right, Centurion, but in this case the families of almost all the men were traced and contacted. Some did make the journey from SW France, which is indeed a long way in November. One of the disinterred men had been buried with a knife that he had taken with him to war in 1914 and it was returned to his family, who were very moved by the experience. One of them said that it was as if his great-uncle was speaking again, after all the years of silence. The dead man's brother had lived to the age of 104 and only died a couple of years before the body was found. He maintained to the end of his long life that one day his brother would come back - and he did.

Christina

so some good news and some bad news

doesn't enhance the reputation of the French provincial press, though

cheers Martin B

Well, maybe the man in question was just not clear in what he said. And maybe there are ongoing discussions about what to do with the vast acreage of forest at Verdun, which could no doubt produce more money if it could be 'farmed' with modern machines. I wonder whether in 20 years it will still be possible to walk almost anywhere, as one can now.

Christina

Remember when we were talking about Souville & how removing the front forest would help get a better perspective of the landscape etc?
I'm still of two minds about whether this would be a good thing or just leave it all as it is.
We have a 7 day camp planned for easter when I'll be going with a couple of forum members & staying at the bro in laws campsite at Fresnes en W.I'll have another recce & take some 'on high' shots & folks can make their own minds up.
Dave.

Perhaps one day there will be some overall thinking about how to preserve part of the Verdun battlefield in such a way that people understand what the high places were all about. You can see the bump of trees that covers Fort Souville from 30 miles away to the east on a clear day and you can even see it from the Mort-Homme, although the signpost would have you think that you were looking at Fort Douaumont. From the top of the fort, however, you can't see anything at all. Since the major forts were all visible to one another, it would be great if firebreaks - or wide lanes - could be cut so that one could get a view. Close to Ft Vaux there is a memorial to a young chap killed at his observation post. At the time he must have been able to see out over the plain to the east and back to Souville and Tavannes but today - nothing. I realise that it's not possible to preserve everything but the high ground was the point of the battle and it would be good to get the views back.

Christina

I often wondered that as well Christina. Having done a lot of map work for Verdun, and later walking the battlefields with GPS and moving map it's always interesting to realize how little we can see today in relation to the forests grown after the war. Even making sure we have the correct woods and forests outlines from 1916 is difficult--as you know from our work together on the contemporary fire-lanes around the forts.
Forests and forestry is an overlooked portion of the war, and especially around Verdun. I found the fact that they had a plan specifically for cutting down sections of forest in the event of war fascinating. It was also interesting to see what wasn't accomplished. Large sections of woods marked for removal were still standing when the Germans arrived in 1914.

I would imagine there must have been erosion concerns which prompted planting as well. That would be a good question for Joe Hupy--I would think he'd know.

Paul

The issue of restoring tree lines to the way they were during the American Civil War is an issue that came up about 15 years ago in regard to our national battlefield parks. I don't know whether it was actually done or only discussed.

Edit: Click here for information about site restoration at Gettysburg.

I can only agree. The thought of cutting down all the forest on the battlefield, then digging it all up and trying to identify every body they find would be hilarious if it wasn't pathetic and disgusting.

The whole reason for planting the trees in the first place (the only place where trees were planted where none had been before) was to preserve the ground as a cemetery.

I hadn't heard about this proposal before, but utterly ridiculous is the least I can say.

About ten years ago the Meuse-Argonne said they were going to send in army armoured bulldozers to destroy all the UXB and flatten the trenches so that they could start 'economic' forestry. That hasn't happened either - probably for reasons of cost. Think destroying the whole of the New Forest area, only with steep hills.

"The issue of restoring tree lines to the way they were during the American Civil War is an issue that came up about 15 years ago in regard to our national battlefield parks. I don't know whether it was actually done or only discussed"

Even on the holiest of grounds on the Somme, the North edge of Newfoundland Memorial Park, Beaumont-Hamel, removal of trees would immediately lead to a much better understanding for the visitors about what exactly happened to the Soldiers who went over the top there.

Leave them in peace. Modern man should not bother a mans final resting place.

You're brave to say that, but I think that you're right.

The French are not so worried about caring for their 1.35 million Great War dead as we are about our 750,000; but then again, the Austrailians are far more dedicated to their 60,000 dead than we are with our three quarters of a million. Could it be that the greater the number, the less the fuss? A terrible thing to suggest...hope I don't get too much flak !

Phil.

88mm Flak round on its way................
Our dead, surley the CWGC care, if anybody does they do.
Bob Grundy

Yes, of course they do, Bob....I would be mortified if I'd been disdainful about the CWGC.

You will take my point, I hope, about the difference in attitude towards the exhumation and identification of Commonwealth dead between the official CWGC approach and the Australian insistence that hundreds of their dead from Fromelles be accorded treatment that would not normally be countenanced.

Phil.

When i first visited Verduns battle sites i couldn't help but think that if this was in England it would have been turned into a theme park/retail centre, perhaps the French authorities are thinking along the lines of battle fields dont make money.Retail/Theme parks do. By the way i think they should leave it alone.

Going on my 5th visit this May, would live there if i could.

I think that utter destruction of the battlefield during 1916 and the terrible loss of life was just too stunning to contemplate for the French authorities. And who can blame them. It was their men dying on their soil after all. The attitude was just 'let the trees grow, cover it over and move on'. Not many strings were attached to the grant of the land to the forestry office, so although a few places have been deliberately preserved, much has been destroyed over the years. Not through ill well but rather through a lack of interest.

Ten years of so ago, I was very concerned by the use of huge bulldozers in the forests but things are changing with the advent of a younger generation of foresters who are interested in history. In my experience there is a big difference in attitudes to history between France and the English-speaking world. In the English-speaking world, history belongs to everyman but in France - and I realise that this is a bit of a sweeping statement - it is a thing for academics and professors. However, that is changing too, with the advent of the web and masses of on-line information and a younger generation of history-interested people who are sufficiently far from the events in time for the war to be history and not pain.

As to theme parks...I fear that if the Verdun authorities could make money out of the battlefield, they would. There are about 6 different authorities involved and no overarching supervision, which means that people don't work together. That is probably a good thing for those of us who like to wander unmolested in the forest and see the battlefield as it has been for 90 years.

Christina


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Well said Christina............
Bob Grundy

It is mordern day thinking with no thought to the past and what happend there. All the local council thinks of now is money and how much they can make. If every French relitive sent a letter of protest to them perhaps they would sit and smell the roses.

Dan