Is anyone aware of any maps showing the actions of the 5th Norfolks at Suvla Bay on 12th August 1915? There is a very small and basic map in Nigel McCrery's book "All the King's Men" showing their starting position, just to the west of Azmak CWGC cemetery, the line of advance due east, the limit of their advance around 1/2 mile onwards, then the area where the bodies were found in 1919, a little further to the east (described by Pierrepoint Edwards as being in "Square 118 I"). If possible, I''d like to find a better map

Many thanks

Alan

Alan

I spent 4 days walking the Suvla battlefield area last year. Prior to going I tried to locate as many maps as possible but without much luck. However, based on McCrery's book, I walked in the direction that the Sandringham men attacked and took a few photos of the area. I stopped at a point where I could see the shepherd's hut and to walk further would have meant crossing a farmers field that I suspect was cultivated. As I'm always loathe to trespass on cultivated fields I retraced my steps to Azmak cemetery.
If you wish I can try and post the photos or send you copies.

Garth

Hi Garth - would love to see your pictures - I'm hoping we'll be able to follow in their footsteps next month. I'll send you a PM with my email address.

Many thanks

Alan

Alan

I do have an image of a map showing square 118-I, but its 3MB file size and therefore could not be posted on the forum. If you like to PM me with an email address, I could send it to you.

John

Thanks John - PM sent

Alan

I've now received a map of square 118 I - thanks again John.

I've read all the sources I can find, (McCrery, the documents by Raynor, Travis and Williamson, and the Azmak article on the IWM ewebsite) and I'm still uncertain where some of the key locations are. For instance -

- "a group of buildings that formed a small village/farm complex" where Colonel Beauchamp was last seen, urging on his men
- the gulley where the bodies were dumped after the Turkish farmer returned to his land in 1916

Can anyone help me identify where these sites are?

Many thanks

Alan

In the Spring 2009 edition of the Gallipoli Association journal, The Gallipolian, is the transcript of the address given at the East Anglian Regional lunch last June on "The Sandringham Becks at Gallipoli" given by Graham Beck. Captain Frank Beck was his grandfather's brother and Alec and Evelyn Beck were his father's senior first cousins.

The Expert-On-The-Spot is our own GWF Pal 'The Plummed Goose' aka Eric
Incidentally, he has the perfect place to stay while you're in the battlefield
see http://www.gallipoli.com.tr/index.htm

Hi Alan,

The Norfolk Regiment Museum in Norwich may be able to help you. They had a really good exhibition on the Sandringham
Men awhile ago. Plenty of phots etc. Might have some maps.

The address is
Royal Norfolk Regimental Museum
Shirehall
Market Avenue
Norwich
NR1 3JQ

Tel 01603 493649

e-mail: regimental.museum@norfolk.gov.uk

They are very helpful

All best wishes

Diane

Could somebody please remember this was a brigade attack, Suffolks and Hants were also found strewn over the area of the battlefield. Although I have never seen a CWGC corpse distribution map of the area, if one was actually taken.

Gareth

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Moriarty - I've been thinking for a while of joining the Gallipoli Assoication - so this could be the spur I need!

Michael - we are indeed staying with Eric at Gallipoli Houses so hopefully will be able to take advantage of his expert knowledge. I was hoping to find some maps and precise idea of the terrain before we go.

Diane - thanks for that - I'll contact the museum

Gareth - I'm well aware of the involvement of the other battalions in the brigade and indeed their heavy losses. Also that the actions of the 5th Norfolks have unfairly overshadowed those of the Hants and the Suffolks. It's just that the reports I've seen suggest a group of buildings where Beauchamp rallied his men, and a gully where the bodies were found. Other threads on the forum suggest that these spots are both still identifiable, and I'd be very interested to try and find them

Regards

Alan

Hi Alan

I have just had a look at the area via Google Earth, It should be quite easy to find the buildings if they still stand, as the resolution is now much better since the last time I looked.

If you find them pop a couple of pictures on GE, that would be a big help to all.

Gareth

If you search on the net there used to be a good site showing the battlefield as it is today, Stand To had a long artical on the lost battalion some years ago, i also do have a photocopied diary of a man who was in the Sandringham battalion

best regards John

The 1/4th Norfolks saw action too, not just the 1/5th Battn.

Rob Carman

Attached is the map as recently published in the Gallipolian, copyright is undoubtedly theirs.

Gareth

If you go to Jul Snelders's site at http://user.glo.be/~snelders/contents.html then click on 'The Lost Battalion' link, there are some good photos of the terrain and an account of Jul's efforts to follow the path of the 5th Norfolks.

Ratty,

Have PM'd you.

Martin

Best easy source of Maps is the WFA DVD; otherwise you need to delve in various archives and rootle through all sorts of printed and sketched maps.

Thanks everyone for your replies, and especially to Martin for his PM.

I've overlain the various maps I can find (from the Travers article, the McCrery book and the one posted by Gareth above) onto Google Earth, together with Point 28 and the square 118 I where Pierrepoint Edwards found the bodies. I'll now add the detail from Martin regarding the likely position of the gully and farmhouse, and await some information that the Regimental Museum in Norwich are going to send me. Then it's off to the peninsula in early April, when hopefully I can take lots of photos.

Once we're back, I should hopefully be able to post a map showing where the sites are.

I am aware that I am concentrating on one small part of the brigade, but I find the way their story has developed fascinating. We will certainly be remembering all the men who went forward that day.

Alan

Once we're back, I should hopefully be able to post a map showing where the sites are.

Thanks for the offer to share Alan; looking forward to learning more on this episode
Have a safe journey and a great time

regards
Michael

may i request those pics,too?

thanks

PM your email address and I will let you have copies

Garth

Hi
Just to join the thread, I was over on the peninsula last March and together with the help of Eric and his Chelsea Tractor managed to get to Lala Baba and take some photographs of the landing place for the 6th Lincolns for a forthcoming publication on that Battalion.

Greetings 1 IG

Do you have any pics from Lala baba looking towards Scimitar Hill and W Hills. I can PM you an email address if you need it. It was too wet to get there when I was there in early May and Eric's 4x4 was on another mission.

John

PS Also badly need view from Kiretch T to Scimitar if anyone has one.

Hi Alan
Sorry for that (hit the wrong key!!), to continue regarding your quest, I was over on the Peninsula retracing some actions last March and with the help of Eric and his Chelsea Tractor managed to get through the mud to Lala Baba, and obtain photographs of the vista of the Salt Lake and Suvla Bay where the 6th Lincolns landed.

The important information for you is that "Linesman" will shortly be producing a Gallipoli addition to its already incredible France and Belgium maps for use with a GPS enabled PDA.

Eric informs me that the creators stayed with him at the Gallipoli Houses in September, and from my last contact with the Linesman team, they said early next year, 2010. It may pay you to visit their website and email them to get an update, they may even be able to give you infomation realating to what sort of coverage they will be giving to your area of interest, you will find it an extremely worthwhile tool, and the accuracy in France and Belgium is quite stunning, so I would expect it would be much the same for Gallipoli.

Hi Alan
I am unsure if I have the photographs that you want, as my mission was to photograph the gravestone of Brigadier General Paul Kenna VC, DSO. for my own research (Leicestershire and Rutland Casualties), and then to photograph the Salt Lake and Suvla for the late Simon Shields, for his forthcoming book on the 6th Lincolns, his Grandfather won an MC while serving with that Regiment and landed at Suvla, sadly Simon passed away a few weeks after I had delivered the images to him, however whilst there I certainly took photographs in the immediate area and would be happy to forward you, or indeed anyone else a pdf file of the images, you can then select any photographs you want and I can then send you jpegs for you to print.

For anyone attempting to visit in winter and certainly up until late March time it is better to hire a Chelsea Tractor in Istanbul for the expedition than the Fiat saloon as in my case, as some of the areas are quite difficult to access due to the mud and the deep ruts left by other vehicles. To Eric I shall be eternally grateful for his help in allowing me to complete my mission!!

Hope that helps?
Michael

PS: Whilst there I took photographs of all the cemeteries and memorials, as I had to visit them all to trace casualties for my own publication.

Michael
When will the 6th Lincolns book be published? My 9th Bn Sherwood Foresters were a sister Bn in 33rd Brigade.

Stevem

Hi Steven
Sadly the author, Simon Shields after returning from a trip to the Western Front in April 2008 took ill and in tragic circumstances passed away soon after, I understood from Simon that his book had been accepted for publication, and that it was almost fully completed, I am sure that the trip he had returned from, was in fact for finalising details for the book prior to its preparation for the publisher. I have spoken with his companions and fellow researchers to ascertain whether anyone will look to publishing the book posthumously, but so far I have received no positive responses.

Interestingly I have a five men with Leicestershire connections that served in the 9th Sherwood Foresters who I am also researching, they died on 9th and 21st August, 28th September and the 27th November 1915 respectively, I have photographs of their names all inscribed on the Helles Memorial with the exception of one who is buried in Azmak Cemetery and I have photographed his gravestone.
Michael

Let us hope that after all of his work, it will be published.
Samuel Palmer who enlisted at Mansfield and address in Blaby died on November 27th as a result of the Storms, floods etc. The 9th Bn had been relieved by 6th Lincolns on 24th November.
I visited all of my men last year. I spent an hour at Azmak whilst others went looking for the Sandringham men! It was a very moving time. I was hoping to take a photo of the cemetery to match with one I have from the 20s but the trees were in the way.

Steve M

Hi Steve
I cannot understand the connection that Samuel Palmer has with Mansfield in Nottinghamshire, I know he was born in Hose, Leicestershire, and his family lived in Blaby, again Leicestershire, but he does not appear on either of those villages war memorial. Is he commemorated in Mansfield at all? I would be interested to know a little more about him.
Michael

I have found no reason for him being at Mansfield when he joined up, sorry.
Possibly he was working there. I would have thought that if he wanted to join the N&D Regiment, Nottingham would have been closer!
Might be worth starting another thread asking for info on the Mansfield memorial.
Steve

Hi all

My great grandfather was Samuel James Palmer who died on the 27th November 1915 at Gallipoli. He signed up at Mansfield because he was living at Blidworth with his wife and children from 1903. After his joining up his wife went to live with her family at Blaby. His family of course were still at Hose. His name appears on a memorial with others who fell at Blidworth parish church.

Hope this helps

Celestine

I understand that your Gt/Grandfather died as a result of severe weather conditions whilst serving in the support line at Suvla, in Gallipoli and was one of several other men to die in this way on this day.
Was your great grandfather a railway worker and did he at one time live on Main Street in Blidworth? I am researching a photo i recently came across who i believe to be of 2/Lt Paull who died on the same day. regards, BRONNO.

Hi he was an engine cleaner at the time of his marriage, but at the time of his enlignlistment he was a colliery shaft sinker. He was also noted as being a general labourer in the 1901 and 1911 censuses. According to family he didn't have to join up as his job and age exempt him at the time, however his younger brother George joined up, also the Sherwood Foresters (2nd Battalion) and Samuel went with him. George was killed in August 1915 in Belgium not long before Samuel. I believe they may have lived at Main Street, however I have no proof of this. I know that they lived at Mount Pleasant, Blidworth in 1914 at the time my grandmother was born. His death certificate states that he was killed in action. I understand from experts on the subject and the many books I have about the Gallipoli campaign that although the ice storm and rain may have been the overriding factor there was still enemy fire and it looks like Samuel may have succumbed to this rather than the weather that day. But as the diaries do not mention the lower ranks I do not have anything over than the death certificate to go on. Incidently Samuel's papers are amongst the burnt papers in the archives. We have nothing of Samuel's amongst family papers, no photos even. After his death the family were pulled apart and I have spent a good ten years researching what happened next. Good luck with the photo. Best wishes Celestine.

Could your George be number 8647 George William Palmer killed at Sanctuary Wood 9th August 1915. BRONNO.

Thats the one, Sams little brother. Cele