I thought as a newbie I would just post up my great uncle's details as he is one of the missing at Fromelles.

Leonard was one of three brothers who served, George was killed in 1917 and Sidney survived. Len was according to a letter I got from the MoD in 1982 enlisted at Leamington 0n 18th November 1918, embarked for BEF on 22nd May 1916, and reported missing on 19th July 1916.

Next of kin was his mother Drucilla of 52 Godiva Street Coventry. He is commemorated on the Loos memorial.

I rang the MoD about him on Monday and registered as a relative. They are sending me a pack and will possibly sending some body out in due course for a family visit.

Hopefully I have managed to post the only picture of him successfully together with an unknown soldier, also I think from the Warwickshire. Len is sitting. I think the picture must have been taken April or May of 1916 before being post to France, possibly at his home in Godiva Street. My grandmother , who was one of Len's sisters ,went after the war with her mother to visit the battle fields and I have a photo too of her at brothers Georges grave. Their mother has engraved on her grave in Coventry the names of both Len and George. If it turns out that Len is one of the 400 waiting to be found at Fromelles then it would finally bring resolution as to what happened to Len. From my reading of the regimental war diaries from the National Archives it was a ill thought out battle, with cruel orders such the wounded were to be left until non combatants came along to stretcher them back.

Presumably if he is identified in due course it would also mean he managed to cross to the German trenches. What I would be curious to know is whether its possible to find out what company he was in as the War Diaries do mention in the orders the intended role of specific companies.

Richard
Click to view attachment

Richard

Welcome to the forum.

If you are having difficulty with uploading the photos then it is worth experimenting in the 'area to play' section at the botttom of the main page. They must be compressed below 100k or linked to an outside server.

Mel

could you send me a good resolution of your image and my personal e mail as I am doing an article for the coventry telegraph see www.warmemorialpark.co.uk/fromelles.pdf

I have a picture and article on George from the local papers

Would you be happy to speak to the telepgraph

I have a picture of leonard and george.

Coventry herald 17/8/1917 mrs twamley of 52 godiva street who had a son kiled on july 19, 1916 has now been informed that her second son pte geo. twamley was killed on the 31st july. nineteen years of age he was formely employed as grinder machine maker by messrs Guest who are near the charterhouse. eighteen months ago he joined the warwicks and transferred tot he worcesters and was with that regiment at the time of his death.

1/9/1916 coventry graphic mrs twamley of 52 godiva street would be grateful for news of her son who was reported missing on the 19th july. he was employed as a turner at the singer works and enlisted in the royal warwicks.

Wow- I'm in awe that you have quoted the articles. Absolutely spot on. The family were involved in the bicycle and car industry. Thanks so much. I've tracked down two more nephews of Len's in Coventry. Spoke to one last night and another I'm going to ring today. len seems to have more family than I thought.

The identity of the unidentified soldier with Len in the picture is worth investigation- If he was a pal who was in the same battalion then could he be one of the missing at Fromelles too?


Whats the email address for the pictures to be sent to? I'm richard.parker@tesco.net

I have also posted a range of Twamley family WW1 pictures http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/richard.park...wamleyPictures#.

They include my grandmother visiting George's grave in Belgium

As an update today I've discovered a thread from 30th April saying Leonard's emails had appeared on Ebay about three months ago. As a matter of urgency I have emailed Ebay this morning seeking the identity of the buyer but suspect having had one automated reply the follow up will be rather slow.

I would love to know who sold/bought the medals with a view to getting them returned to the family.

can any one help in this search?

Richard

I have doubled checked all my records and these were the medals of another coventry man who also had a brother which was leonard twaites not twamley. I know some collectors locally and will see if any off them have them as they would appear not to be in the family possession.

I thought every one would like to know I have now tracked down 6 living nephew and nieces of Leonard "Len". I've let them know about the situation, given them some information on the family tree. Also let them know of each others existence. Only one has internet access. There is the possibility of a few more yet.

Its perhaps worth bearing in mind all of the nephews and nieces are in their 70s. I would think any general appeal for relatives to come forward would best not be web based if my experience is any thing to go by. Some had heard what was happening at Fromelles, but none, like me had made the initial connection. Luckily I notice through Google news some local newspapers have covered the story, so this obviously helps.

The Historic Casualty Casework Team at the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency whom I've spoken to need a family tree and proof of relationships to Len. This will all be supplied in due course.

Richard

Many thanks to Trevor for arranging todays spot on the BBC radio in Coventry. After the show one of Leonard's nieces got in touch with me and filled in some blanks on the family tree. This relative is not on the net and like so many others it shows that perhaps the best way to track down the nearest relatives may be newspapers and radio.

I've also had one of Leonard's other relatives get in touch who sent me a copy of a newspaper article from 1917 with a picture of his brother George detailing the death of both brothers.

Richard

I have now just three nephews and nieces to check on- two may or may not be alive -surname Wood as a sister of Len's (Edith) married a William Wood in 1915 in Coventry and appears to have had two children -William Wood in 1918 and Gwendoline in 1920. Sister Edith re married in 1926 to a George Holroyd in 1926. No children from the 2nd marriage.

The other missing niece is in Australia, moved there in 1968, was Helen Twamley but married a Mr Tebbit and was last heard of in Queensland. May also possibly have moved to Tasmania. Would any one reading this from Australia know how I might be able make an appeal there or seek help?

All the other nephews and nieces have now been contacted and made aware of their link to Len.

Richard

As another update here the oiginal article from 1917 mentioning both Leonard and George Twamley

text reads
Coventry Herald 17/8/1917 Mrs Twamley of 52 Godiva Street who had a son kiled on July 19, 1916 has now been informed that her second son Pte Geo. Twamley was killed on the 31st July. nineteen years of age he was formely employed as grinder machine maker by messrs Guest who are near the Charterhouse. eighteen months ago he joined the Warwicks and transferred tot he Worcesters and was with that regiment at the time of his death.

I have also these photos of my grandmother Alice Parker nee Twamley- Leonard's sister visiting brother George grave in Belgium after WW1.

"The other missing niece is in Australia, moved there in 1968, was Helen Twamley but married a Mr Tebbit and was last heard of in Queensland. May also possibly have moved to Tasmania. Would any one reading this from Australia know how I might be able make an appeal there or seek help?"

Alerted to this by Aussie Chris.

Not sure what our chances will be as this is in the 'privacy act' and we may not be able to locate them. I have contacts in Qld and Tasmania but the chances of locating them is rather slim given the date. However, electoral rolls might help.

Tim is away at the moment but will be home shortly.

Leave this bit with me for now

Bright Blessings
Sandra

Richard,

Here's what I've found about the Twamley family. I presume you have most of this but maybe there's something in there that's useful.

(all the events listed occured in Coventry)

Herbert Twamley married Drucilla Lapworth in 1888. Her birth index spells her christian name 'Drusilla'. Oddly in the 1901 Census she is listed as 'Emma' Twamley?? Perhaps she didn't like her christian name and was using a middle name.

Anyway, they had the following children:

Lily 1889-1892

Oliver 1892-1940 married 1918 Nellie Brookes
children: Oliver W b.1919

Edith 1894-1978 first married 1915 William J Wood,
children: William R b.1916, Gwendoline M b.1920
second married 1926 George Holroyd
children: n/k

Leonard 1896-1916

Agnes 1898-1928 married 1924 Charles Hurton
children: Barbara J b.1928

George 1899-1917

Sidney 1900-1963 married 1927 Edith Pack
children: Sidney E b.1931, Helen D b.1934

Alice 1901-1986 married 1933 Harry Parker
children: Gordon H b.1934

Florence 1902-1992 married 1928 David Vincent
children: n/k

Percy 1904-1979 married 1930 Anne Clarke
children: n/k

Albert 1904-???? married 1935 Evelyn Allum
children: n/k

Henry 1906-1907

Will do some more hunting to see what I can find out about Helen in Australia.

Cheers,
Tim L.

Good news Today

One of Len's service medals has been traced!- Just 24 hrs before the radio appeal that Trevor and I made on BBC Coventry and Warwickshire radio, the medal had been sold for £3. Its now been retrieved thanks to a relative being in contact after the radio interview and is being sent on for safe keeping.

Also it appears possible that the unidentified soldier in the picture above with "Len"may be 266487 Pte Harry Austin. Also killed at Fromelles. Harry Austin came from Coventry too and had a similar service number to Len's 266675. (Any experts out there on Warwickshire Service numbers in 1915?). I speculate whether they knew each other before joining up or even joined together?

Have a look at Trevors picture at the link below and see if you think its the same person:

www.warmemorialpark.co.uk/fromelles.pdf

Would appreciate a view as to whether you agree with me.

Richard

I'd have to say it's a very close match Richard. Even the kinks in his breast pockets of his uniform seem the same!

Cheers,
Tim L.

The news paper article says George was 19 when killed. His birth year seems to put that out by one year. According to what Tim has put up he was 18 and the article says he joined 18 mths before. So young.

The 1901 and 1911 census seem to indicate a birth year of 1899, but his birth was actually registered in the Sept qtr of 1898 in Coventry according to freebmd.org.uk.

I therefore think 19 is the more likely age. Incredibly tragic for his widow mother, looses her husband in 1914, and two sons in a year in 1916/17.

Richard

And two children before that. It really brings home, those times.

Best regards
Kim

Special thanks again to Trevor as I understand there is a piece in the Coventry Evening Telegraph with pictures of the missing including Len. One of his nieces rang me tonight to tell me and was very excited. Unfortunately the on line version does not carry the pictures of the fallen. I would also like to try and find out from where Len seems to have known Pte Harry Austin? Every one so far agrees he matches in appearance to the soldier with Len. I wonder if they were similar ages or went to the same school in Coventry, or if they worked together at Singers where Len worked?

Richard

Many thanks to Tim and Sandra for their help in tracking down the last niece on my list of living relatives. Just waiting to speak to her and let her know of her link. Otherwise all the living relatives and nephews have now been contacted.

In between time I have found some pictures I took a few years ago of the Loos memorial with Leonard's name on.

Richard




heres a slightly closer view- Len's name is at the bottom of the central list
Richard

Good News!

I have been given by one of Leonard's relatives, his posthumously awarded Victory Medal. I am very glad to know at least one of his medals has survived this long and is now in very safe hands.

Also now sent off all the genealogical information needed by the MoD for their search for relatives if DNA is needed.

I've also been trying to find out if there's any possibility of the early release of the "burnt records" WW1 army service records. So far up to the letter N has been released and I was curious about the timetable. If his is service record still exists then it may have the odd detail that could help.Tried Ancestry.co.uk who were really unhelpful in their reply. Now awaiting a response from the National Archives.

Richard

Heres a picture of the inscription on the Victory Medal posthumously awarded to Leonard. No sign of his other medal.

Many thanks to Trevor Harkin for supplying a 2nd photo of Leonard Twamley. I'm now seeking out the original from relatives.

Interestingly I have inherited a crucifix. The story behind it was that it belonged to "one of the brothers" who was killed, either Leonard or brother George and was returned with personal possessions after they were killed. I will be contacting the SPVA casework team as they are looking for such items as they may still have DNA on them which could be useful in identification.

Richard

Just a note on the Royal Warwickshire Regiment numbers. During the Great War there were numerous different numbering series. On of these was that given to Territorials. Each pre-war battalion of Territorials issued it's soldiers with a number from its own series - theoretically starting from No. 1 in 1908 when the Militia and Volunteer battalions became the Territorial Force.

In 1917, these men were re-numbered to reduce the administration problems with all these number series.

200001 to 240000 5th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regt
240001 to 265000 6th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regt
265001 to 305000 7th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regt
305001 to 330000 8th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regt

and a war-time created battalion,

330001 to 355000 18th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regt

As you can see Len Twamley's number lies in the 7th Battalion series (which is what we'd expect).


What is notable about the renumbering is that it took place in MARCH 1917 (officially the 1st March 1917), eight months after Len Twamley was posted as Missing. You often see this with men posted missing, as they were still "held on the books" until officially recognised as having been killed, which was often about a year after a man went missing.

Len Twamley would have actually served under his pre-1917 number. This SHOULD be shown on the Medal Index Card, but isn't - I'm not familiar with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment medal cards in general, but this seems to be missed off on all of the ones around Len Twamley's number.

See: http://www.1914-1918.net/renumbering.htm


Incidentally, though Len Twamley's service record isn't online yet, the man with the next number - 266676 Reginald Thomas Greasley, is.

We can draw a couple of conclusions from this:

- Reginald Greasley enlisted at Coventry on 20-11-1915. It was around this time that the Derby Scheme came into being changing the way of enlisting, but it seems like Reginald Greasley volunteered under normal Territorial Enlistment and went into uniform immediately.

- Reginald Greasley was issued number 4622. Logic might dictate that Len Twamley's number was therefore 4621.... BUT if a man was discharged or killed (and known to be dead) prior to the re-numbering he would not be renumbered, hence Len Twamley's number is probably close to 4621, but not necessarily exactly 4621.

Another man - Lewis Elks had the following numbers - Royal Warwickshire Regiment 4616, Royal Warwickshire Regiment 266672, Machine Gun Corps 136397, Royal Engineers WR/307888, and this would therefore mean that Len Twamley's number must have been either 4619, 4620 or 4621 (4617 and 4618 cannot be his number due to the presence of the men renumbering to 266673 and 266674 - 4617 was definitely William John Goode - see below; 4618 was L/Cpl. Sidney Sheffield, KIA 19-7-1916)

- Reginald Greasley trained with 2/7th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment and embarked to France on 22-5-1916 - this is not necessarily the date when all the men with similar numbers embarked, however. It was though the date that the 2/7th Battalion arrived in France en-masse so it is likely to be the date of a lot of these mens embarkation.


Another man's records with a very close number are those of 4617/266673 William John Goode - actually missing with Len Twamley on 19-7-1916.

William John Goode, 4617 7th Bn. Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

- Volunteered under normal Territorial Enlistment at Coventry, 19-11-1915.
- Numbered 4617
- Posted to 2/7th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment.
- Embarked to France, 22-5-1916.
- Missing, 19-7-1916
- Taken POW.
- Renumbered 266673
- Died as a POW at Giessen, 5-7-1918


Interesting to note that on the photograph is that Len is wearing an Imperial Service Obligation badge, denoting that he volunteered for overseas duty. He probably did this upon enlistment. The above mentioned 4617 William John Goode signed his upon attestation on 19-11-1915.



In conclusion, these records seem to be saying the same thing about these men - enlisted around 20-11-1915, issued with numbers in 4617 to 4622 range, trained with 7th Reserve battalion, embarked to France on 22-5-1916. This seems to back up what the MOD letter you received states,



Sorry, I think I got sidetracked a bit... (and it was largely information you already know!) but in answer to the numbering question, Harry Austins number of 266487 would date to around May 1915.



Steve.

Steve

thanks for taking the time trouble and effort into checking out the numbering- renumbering mysteries for me. Its useful to know the number quoted to me is a 1917 number and not an original 1915 version. Also that Reginald Greasley' service record exists.

I rang the Historic Casualty casework team the day before yesterday at the SPVA and asked them- have you accessed his service record at Kew? Got the answer 40% survived- Lens is not one of them. However I'm still not convinced thats the case, and would want to double check, especially if Reginald Greasleys survived the blitz burning of service records. As Len is a "T" then its taking its time to come on line and sadly a trip to Kew may be required. The service record could offer vital clues as I've just had a letter from the SPVA asking for all sorts of information about Len - from dental work to was he left handed and what occupation he did to assist identification of remains.

I never noticed before a medal on Len's picture- never heard of the "Imperial Service Obligation badge" and it denotes he volunteered. I've rechecked the picture- whereabouts is he wearing it on the uniform?

The other puzzling thing is Len going to Leamington to enlist. Trevor Harkin tells me there were problems in Coventry at the recruiting offices. If all these lads joined up on 20th November 1915 as volunteers I do wonder if they were Coventry lads if they knew one another from work or elsewhere (a football team perhaps?)

Len worked for Singers which I think had a strong footballing connection as well with Coventry City from what I've seen on the web- though this may be wrong

I'm still struggling with taking in all the info on numbering and its implications

thanks again

Richard

Steve

just managed to answer my own question on the "Imperial Service Obligation badge"- its on the 2nd picture I just posted of Len.

thanks

Richard

Steve

I just checked his medal roll card as well for the number- its got only the 1917 number - does it give any other clues by the way?

thanks

Richard

The information that you got from the MOD - his exact dates of enlistment and embarkation to France - are the sort of information you very rarely find conclusively from anywhere except his service records. My gut feeling is that they are there somewhere.


Yes, it was the latest picture where the badge reference came from!


For information -

- 4617/266673 William John Goode has no occupation listed on his records beyond "Labourer" - his address was "8 Marstons Buildings, Holbrook Lane, Foleshill Nr Coventry". He is down as enlisting at Coventry.

- 4622/266676 Reginald Greasley was an engine cleaner on the railway at Rugby - his address was 108 Wood Street, Rugby. His records state both that he joined at Rugby and at Coventry. I suspect he enlisted at one and formally joined the Army at the other on the same day.


Both Greasley and Goode were in "B" Company, but it is probably pushing it to imagine that Len Twamley was as well...


Steve.

P.S. Incidentally, Lewis Elks records are online as well.... He was from 184 Broad Street, Foleshill Coventry.

Steve

Did the info Greasley and Goode being in "B" company come from their service record or some where else? I'm just wondering if the National Archives "burnt records" actually do have his service record after all. Could wait for ever for ancestry to get around to releasing them.

So it seems like Len volunteered for service, and from what I have read else where on the Great War Forum was in a Territorial battalion- hence the 2/7th. I think you are convincing me the lads with service numbers either side of him were not mates as they came from different areas and different jobs. I clearly need to look out for a 1915 service number between 4618 and 4621.

thanks again

Richard

From their service records. Greasley's is on his Conduct Sheet. Goode's is mentioned on the notification from the Germans following his death as a POW.


Having a further look at the re-numbering there are only two options for Len Twamley's number, i.e. 4620 or 4621. These are the three different numbering options around Len Twamley's number:

Option 1

4616 - 266672 L. Elks
4617 - 266673 W. J. Goode
4618 - Not renumbered, S. Sheffield, KIA 19-7-1916
4619 - 266674 W. Wale
4620 - 266675 L. Twamley
4621 - Not renumbered, unknown name
4622 - 266676 R.T. Greasley

Option 2

4616 - 266672 L. Elks
4617 - 266673 W. J. Goode
4618 - Not renumbered, S. Sheffield, KIA 19-7-1916
4619 - 266674 W. Wale
4620 - Not renumbered, unknown name
4621 - 266675 L. Twamley
4622 - 266676 R.T. Greasley

Option 3

4616 - 266672 L. Elks
4617 - 266673 W. J. Goode
4618 - Not renumbered, S. Sheffield, KIA 19-7-1916
4619 - Not renumbered, unknown name
4620 - 266674 W. Wale
4621 - 266675 L. Twamley
4622 - 266676 R.T. Greasley




Steve.

Ouch!

Just been hit by inspiration....


List of Missing from the Times of 28-8-1916:





His number was ..... 4621.


Note that the men on Trevor Harkins PDF link appear here with their earlier numbers....


H. Barlow, 266144, formerly No. 3475
A. Chatwin, 265148, formerly No. 1639.
T. H. Desborough, 266259, formerly No. 3736
J. Farren, 265409, formerly No. 2257
J. A. Hazelwood, 265933, formerly No. 3139
T. Moore, 266167, formerly No. 3515
A. G. Neale, 266506, formerly No. 4337
A. Portman, 266488, formerly No. 4301
H. B. Sheppard, 265192, formerly No. 1787
H. Stanway, 265295, formerly No. 2018
T. Whitcroft, 266485, formerly No. 4297




Steve.

Steve

well done for tracking Len down, so you were right, 4621 and strangely not referred to on the medal roll record, only the 1917 number.

I have just been thinking about whether Len was in "B" company as those who joined either side seemed to have been in it.

I just re checked the post battle inquest from the National Archives. B Company did reach the German trenches under the command of Captain Edwards but came under heavy machine gun fire from the right flank just after 6pm.

If Len was in B company and therefore was killed whilst at the German trenches then it would seem to be good chance his remains are waiting to be discovered.

Do you have a list of who you think was in each company by the way? The published list of the missing from the CWGC does have some company info but most are missing? I think the company info on each man would be a useful indicator as to where they were when they were killed.

thanks again for taking the trouble to look this info up.

Richard

I'm afraid I don't have any sort of list like that.

The Royal Warwickshires are not my area of research, but I do have an interest in Fromelles, hence my "sticking my oar in."


I would personally be reticent in assuming he was in "B" Company, though the battle reports seem to suggest this might be right. It really is a matter of getting hold of his records, should they be at the National Archives.


The reason for his earlier number not appearng on the Medal Index Card is that the information required for inscribing the medal (that is what the cards were for after all!) only needed the man's final situation - in this case his rank of Private and his last number. Some medal Districts did however interpret the instructions a bit differently from others, hence you can get a wide variety of interpretations.



Steve.


EDIt: There is a possibility that the recently uncovered Red Cross records may add a little more information.

Well done Steve!

Richard, unfortunately, the majority of the men who were posted as missing will remain missing for evermore and Pheasant Wood will have held only a small proportion of them. Leonard's service record has not survived and his name does not appear on any German list forwarded to the Red Cross in 1916. Whilst it is not impossible that he was buried at Pheasant Wood, it is, I’m sorry to say, unlikely.

With regard to your research into which men were with which company, if you are gathering this information from the CWGC online records, I would add a word of caution. I'm informed that this information was supplied by the next-of-kin via the Final Verification Form and cannot be relied upon. Men were often transferred from one company to another and the next-of-kin would not necessarily have been aware of the change. Even if Leonard was in "B" company, the evidence seems to point to him having not been killed in the German line or even close to it.

I wish that I could give you something more promising.

V.

Victoria

Just a bit puzzled then if Len's service record has not survived as to how I got a letter in the 1980s from the MoD detailing date of enlistment, place of enlistment, date of departure for France- where did that come from?

Secondly the impression given to relatives by the SPVA has been more positive. However so far as I've monitored the CWGC web site no mention has been made of Warwickshire artefacts or remains being found. Now I'm not sure if thats because they have not yet got to the right mass graves or some thing else.

I've not seen the list from the Red Cross list- is there some where to access that? Whats the numbers from 2/7th battalion on it? My reading of the post battle report from the National Archives was that B company made it to the other side pretty much intact, and that C and D company arrived thereafter, partly as they were closer distance wise than other regiments. If they did make it then surely it is not unreasonable to expect their remains to be in the mass graves?

Richard

Richard,

I have checked thoroughly for Leonard’s service record and I can assure you that it hasn’t survived. The limited information forwarded to you by the MoD would undoubtedly have been taken from his papers prior to their destruction during the Blitz.

I compiled the list of British men missing at Fromelles after the 1916 attack. As part of my research, and in the absence of surviving Germans lists, it was necessary to retrieve the extracts of these lists from within the casualty lists supplied to The Times by the War Office (forwarded by the Red Cross) for the 1914-1918 period. Using The Times Digital Archive, I made an in-depth search of these casualty lists for the dates between 1st August 1916 and 31st March 1917 (page by page, day by day and week by week for each calendar month). Of all the names which I extracted, Leonard’s name was not among them. The fact that he was issued with a new six-digit service number after March 1917 indicates that the War Office had received no further information regarding his whereabouts and he would, therefore, have remained on the nominal roll until such time as they could be certain that he was not a PoW and was therefore dead.

This information is now with the MoD, but would be of little use. It merely states that the men whose names appeared on the lists were dead and that their details had appeared on German reports. This information could have been retrieved by the Germans prior to burial or it could, just as easily, been retrieved from such items as Identity Discs and pay books (the body having been left in situ in No-Man’s-Land). None of this information gives any indication as to whether or not the man had been buried by the Germans. It is accepted that the majority of the British dead buried at Pheasant Wood would have been members of the 2/7 Warwicks. These were, on the whole, the only men to have made it into the German front line.

The SPVA are quite right to remain positive and upbeat with regard to this matter. We simply don’t know who is buried at Pheasant Wood, which is why we are pushing for the relatives of all the missing men to participate in DNA testing. I am merely adding a word of caution. Time and time again, I am contacted by people who are convinced that if their relative was posted as missing after the action, he must, therefore, have been buried at Pheasant Wood. This simply isn’t the case.

I hope that this helps to clarify things.

V.

Victoria

Sorry for sounding so sceptical. I have for the last 29 years been carrying out family history research, I've quite often been told some thing is the case only to discover later with documents things are a bit different. I've found through experience its often a good idea to double check yourself. I'm still a little puzzled though as to why you say the info I was given in the 80s was taken from papers destroyed in the Blitz, but some how never made it to be microfilmed as "burnt papers at Kew.

Len was actually one of the first relatives I carried out research on all those years ago and I had to get my grandmother (his sister) to sign a release letter to get that info from the MoD. We were at that time in a pre Internet age and had to do the research the hard way so I respect the massive amount of time and effort put into checking the Times reports.

You are also perfectly correct to sound a note of caution as to whether his remains will be found. What I have heard subsequently when I first became aware of the Fromelles story this year is that the German commanding officer offered a truce for the retrieval of bodies and that this was refused by the British. He clearly had a significant problem as he had literally hundreds of dead bodies in the July heat to contend with in their trenches. As 2/7th Warwickshire B,C and D companies had recorded as missing presumed killed at the time 1 officer, + 170 men according to the post battle reports , but 2/6th lost 1 officer and 74 men then 2/7th clearly form the bulk of those who may be discovered. I also noted in the post battle reports it stated efforts were being made to recover bodies in no mans land.

On the more recent published list from SPVA/CWGC this contains 79 names including two officers for 2/7th Warwickshires, and 79 names for 2/6th Warwickshires including one officer. There are 349 names on the full list including other regiments. What I do not know is how this list was arrived at.

Clearly there would have been a rush on to bury the bodies by the Germans so whether they always went to the trouble to get identification of all bodies remains to be seen.

In Len's case I remain positive as 2/7th did make it across and the chances are he was killed in the German trenches. Until the final exhumations are made at Fromelles it will be difficult to know how many were actually buried and possibly the split between Australasian and British soldiers He may however not be found, but at least alot of effort will have been made to tell his story after all these years.

Richard

Richard,

The information would have been extracted from Leonard’s service record (and possibly from the recruitment registers). This would then have been stored separately from the service record, therefore surviving the Blitz. There is an unvoiced belief amongst some Great War researchers that the MoD holds more information than it cares to admit, but proving it is another matter.

Many of our missing men wouldn’t have been “missing” at all. In the days immediately following the action, attempts were made by our own side to deal with the bodies lying immediately in front of the British line. Whether or not Identity Discs etc. were removed before this took place is not known. If not, dead men immediately become “missing”. Many men would also have been buried in makeshift graves and would have been exhumed after the Armistice and re-interred in local military cemeteries. Any identification would have been removed for official purposes prior to the original burial. Exhumation would have resulted in many bodies being rendered unidentifiable. If that was the case, one would expect those men to have kept their original regimental numbers. This isn’t the case with Leonard. However, there is every chance that Leonard was buried at Pheasant Wood which is why, as I said earlier, we are urging all relatives to contact the SPVA.

My list consists of 331 missing British men (and one of those has a question mark hanging over his name). The MoD list, released under the umbrella of the CWGC, also contains the names of men who were serving with units which weren’t involved at Fromelles. I have managed to find service records for two of these men which appear to prove that they were killed elsewhere. In addition to this, the list is missing the names of five men who were killed at Fromelles. However, it is important to note that it is a “working” list and therefore subject to alteration.

V.

Victoria

many thanks for the clarification. Has any one made the request for the information you refer to be looked for as part of the Fromelles project?

If the MoD is not forthcoming then has any one considered trying the Freedom of Information Act? The only exemption I think they could use for refusing to supply the recruitment registers etc would perhaps be on the grounds of cost in that it might exceed the £450 upper limit. But in so doing they would have to confirm the information is in their possession. You could then appeal the matter to the Information Commissioner but I suspect pressure could brought to bear before it reached that point.

Certainly a public request to meet the junior Minister at the MoD with responsibility for their archives would in my view help too if the aim is to assist the Fromelles project.

It does seem strange that SPVA is not on the case about this point.

Richard

Richard,

I would suspect that the information held by the MoD would have been used in this particular project, even if it hasn’t been released to the public.

The SPVA are aware of my concerns regarding the working list and are looking into it.

V.

Victoria

I rang the SPVA and raised the issue of my 1980s information being supplied from a service record that did not appear to exist. I had already sent them a copy. They rang me back. I'm told that after checking with Kew and elsewhere the information could have been taken from a publication after the war called I think- Soldiers of the Great War- or some thing similar that contained this sort of info. Apparently is large and expensive- perhaps you might know what I've been referred too? Without ever having seen a copy or knowing whats in it I could not tell you if its compatible with the info in my 1980s letter.

Is it absolutely certain the service record is not at Kew?

Richard

I searched through an horrendous number of rolls of microfilm looking for any service records which may have survived – and I found one. There is a chance that I may have missed Leonard’s, but I doubt it. I’m very thorough, even if I do say so myself. If it helps, I’ll have another look when I’m next at Kew, but I wouldn’t hold out too much hope.

I think that the SPVA are probably referring to “Soldiers Died in the Great War”. Compiled by the War Office, it was published in 1920 in 80 separate parts. I used it when compiling my list of the 1916 Fromelles men. Leonard’s entry reads:

TWAMLEY, Leonard
Born: Coventry, Warwicks.
Enlisted: Leamington, Warwicks.
266675, PRIVATE.
Killed in Action, France & Flanders, 19/07/16.
Royal Warwickshire Regiment, 2/7th Battalion.

none of which explains the date of enlistment or the date of embarkation given to you by the MoD in 1982………………

V.

Victoria

I have just emailed the SPVA pointing out the inconsistancy and that “Soldiers Died in the Great War” cannot be the source for my 1982 letter.

Watch this space

Richard

I am pleased to see that at least one functionary associated with this project appears to be vaguely aware of the SDGW. The party that compiled the 'Working List' of those allegedly killed at Fromelles in units that were allegedly there, was certainly not. Hence the absurdity of simply transposing the residential information about relatives into the hometown of a missing soldier and leaving blanks where no returns were made to the IWGC.

I am off to rewrite the history of Fromelles. It contains hitherto unknown information of how the Cameron Highlanders stormed the Sugar Loaf with the Manchesters and Devons in support. Advance copies available upon request.

Mel

Well the mystery deepens. Been advised that the information that was the source of my 1980s letter about Len has in the process of moving from the Army Records Centre in Hayes (did it ever go to the TNT site in Swadlingcote in Derbyshire?) has been lost/misfiled/wrongly directed or destroyed. Amazing how important documents of historic significance can just disappear. I suspect part of the problem is no body really wanting to go and seriously have a look or ask really difficult questions as to whats been retained and not released to Kew.

Richard

In addition to this, the list is missing the names of five men who were killed at Fromelles. However, it is important to note that it is a “working” list and therefore subject to alteration.

Where can the latest working list be found....The one on the CWGC site hasn't been updated since the 13th May 2009 unless off course the date hasn't been updated on the document or someone else is using Louise Arnold desktop.

I am researching a few warwicks men who match in date but are not on the list from the 13th may.

Thanks

It was slightly tongue in cheek ……..

Who are the Warwicks men whom you're missing?

V.

To progress the story and investigation on my great uncle's short service I have now managed to obtain the complete service record from Kew.

Len's total service was 245 days, having enlisted at Leamington on 18/11/1915. (a similar date to a few other 2/7th - I wonder why?). He was short lad, 5ft 1 inches, chest size 30.5 inches, and on expansion you could add another 2.5inches. (was he below the regulation size?)Medical development was described as "fair". Much of the other paper work describes the tidying up of affairs after he was declared dead, such as the address to send war medals to his mother, or final pay. He did also sign as a territorial the Imperial and general service obligation document that allowed him to be sent overseas. One document also says he declared "missing in the field" in August 1916, which ties in with the Times list of the missing and his mother seeking information about him in the Coventry Herald on 1/9/1916.

Its all a very sad story for a young lad who used to make bicycles for a living in Coventry.

Richard

Well done finding the information - shows that persistance pays off keep us updated
james