In less than no time has Ypres' skyline changed.
The towers of Ypres will have rivalry of 9 windmills, scattered arround on the industrial area Ypres - Boezinge.

See the view from Tyne Cot.

Marnik

Noticed them last week.

Its like something out of War of The Worlds!



Liam

Can they usefully be used to locate some WW1 feature - given that this is claustrophobic Ypres, they must be able to be used in that way. I'd be worried that they would attract shelling!

They are all pretty close to the front line north of Ypres of 1915/17 so useful for pointing out where that is, I suppose.

'Orrible'
Bob Grundy

Did anyone check the spoil heaps when the foundations were dug out?

John

Horrific isn't it. Seems to happen so freely all over Europe. Have any of you driven Cambrai - St Quentin recently? That lonely landscape high up by the Australian mamorial totally ruined by a dozen wind monsters.

Here's a reminder of the old view from Tyne Cot.

Definetly a horrible view. But no do doubt in years to people will be standing at Tyne Cot and using them as a reference for the front line north of Ieper

Sad, but I suppose its progress!

Scottie.

Green fascists - every bit as bad as the industries they castigate.

Windmill-less view from Tyne Cot

Click to view attachment

Absolutely! First they claim/ pretend to save endangered bird species, and when the land is protected and only eco projects allowed, they shred them with their ugly windmills. Did you know that the manufacturing process of a windmill uses up more energy than the windmill will ever pay back by own generated energy

..... and another

Click to view attachment

Mick

I heard the most recent manufacturing process uses recycled environmentalists and vegetarians because they just keep going on and on and on...

I live near the largest wind farm in England (Scout Moor). I have to admit that you do actually get used to the things, as people obviously got used to electricity pylons in the 1930s and onwards. I notice that a monstrous forest of turbines five times as big as Scout Moor has opened near Glasgow. I'm afraid that I remain very cynical about their real cost-effectiveness. They're definitely proliferating on the continent. Last year when I was driving in Europe the entire Franco-German border seemed to be covered in the things. Is our dear Government still planning to build thousands of them off shore?

In order to appease the green lobby, every country in Europe with a seabord is exploring the possibility of installing forests of these monstrous things at sea.

I wonder what will happen when populations realise that the global warming scare has been just a little overplayed ??????

It will be too late for that Ypres skyline however

But why is nobody mentioning the little Belgian birdies? wont they be getting minced-up as the poor things inadvertently fly into the wind farm blades. I can foresee piles of the tweeters lying under the windmills, a prospect too horrible to contemplate.

Norman
(Twitcher)

...and what is lying under the skyline is getting destroyed...

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=123560


Cnock

You could argue it'll be quicker and less painful than being shot by some Frenchman.

As a dedicated hillwalker, I am acquainted with wind turbines and their effect on the landscape. I am also old enough te remember the campaigns against electricity pylons for exactly the same reasons and with much the same arguments on both sides. Interesting that the loudest protests are by visitors who object to their view being spoiled while the supporters are often locals who hope to live and work in the area and see these pylons and generators as necessary for that. That argument is still ongoing in Scotland with reference to a line of super pylons many miles long. I believe that windmills will merge into the background just as pylons and transmission lines did. Occasionally they will mar a view. That must be balanced against the need for electricity and the fact that the public have firmly set their face against nuclear generation. That will change in the future I believe but until then, learn to love the windmills. They are here to stay.

And I can add that I couldn't help noticing the word "monstrous" in some postings. I think something was forgotten : "monstrous in my eyes".
For I myself don't see them as "monstrous" at all. On the contrary, there is - in my eyes (!) - some hypnotizing elegance in them. (Even when realizing they are being built on the WW1 battlefield in our village). And I have not met one person in Boezinge yet who spontaneously used the word monstrous or something like that. Yet, it is us who have to "suffer".

Isn't it all a matter of taste ? Maybe some will reply with : or a lack of taste ...
Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Aurel

I guess it depends on when you go. This was just taken last week and because of the weather no windmills in sight.

I bet the people of Loos said the same thing when they built the Tower Bridge and piled up the Double Crassier!

At least the Wind Turbines have a smaller fooyprint than a large industrial unit, you could say they are now the guardians of the battlefields.


John

What fowl play at hand what call in the flying sqaud .

Dan

They actually started out in the Lake District but a coach load of jocks went on a jolly, had a drink and thought they would make nice garden ornaments....the rest is history.

If the applications pending are accepted, it will be much bigger. It is a long standing tradition for Scots day trippers to take home a windmill for the bairns.

I guess you'll be handing the car keys, TV, PC and all those nice gadgets back an refusing to enter anywhere with air-con then? Thought not and if you actually took the time to do some reading into the subject you'll find that most groups in favour of renewable energy are pro-nuclear these days. However, it's much cheaper to chuck up a few windmills - they also give some people a few things to tilt at...

Whatever happened to wave power (and, not strictly relevant, the Severn Barrage)?

Onshore,the incentive to install windpower is largely being won through the owners of land having being offered returns via rental and in some cases where further incentives have to be reached,royalities based on power generated.Wind surveys will indicate potential sites for successful windpower generation and the owners of land are usually chased by power companies for involvement and normally, as outlined above, do not require much motivation to agree to the installation of windpower farms.

The other very important aspect of the power generation is the power companies do not have to daily bid to get on the local electricity system/grid system, they are embedded into the electrical sytem by legislation accompanied by subsidies.Even so,to my knowledge, knowing of the renewables targets laid down by the UK Government which is dovetailed into the EU directive, two major electricity generating companies are requesting grants to connect the windpower farms into the Grid System.Windpower generators have the disadvantage of having a design constraint in that the generated voltage and generator output is low and requires a dedicated electricity network to transfer the power the 132kv,275kv or 400kv as the case may be, for the nearest available grid connection.(I think the Glasgow Whitelee windpower farm will feed into the 132kv system at least,transmission at lower voltages is not economical)

Consequently,windpower power economics suffers from a faillure to attain reduced installation costs in kwh/installed by economy of scale.A conventional generator powered by a turbine can be designed up to 1600mws as for example, the French nuclear PWRs and for this reason, the cost/kwh installed of nuclear power and fossil fired power plants are much cheaper than windpower cost/ kwh.

A windpower unit and this will have a generation constraint on it of not exceeding 5 mws,and these are advance types will be designed for 120.000 running hours whereas a steam turbine will have a designed life of turbo generator up to 250.000 hours and given good operation and maintance will life out longer.Windpower on the other hand tends to incur high maintenance costs from middle age.

Incidentally an electrical system composed entirely of windpower would be totally unsuitable for a country which has a large industrial and commercial loading from the point of stable Grid System operation.Little prospect of that in the UK as it has been estimated that to replace 2000mws of power plant,it would require an area of 800 square miles for a sufficient number of wind generators to aggregate 2000mws based on the windmill rotor diameter at 60 metres.(Recent windpower development has probably resulted in an increase in rotor diameter designs beyond 60 metres)

Windpower will always be part of the generation mix in an industrial based Electricity Grid System and not a have a main role in the generation of energy. Difficulty in wind prediction will always mean that windpower will be embedded in an electricity system.Experience of the windpower farms already installed should give the Grid System operational experience for the future of windpower development.

Frank
That was very interesting, I take it without any sort of political or monentry bias ?
The life span of the wind turbines at 120K means an ongoing expence or a very good business for manufactures and
maintence companies, self generating in fact.............
Bob

Windpower and wavepower are being actively researched and developed here in Aberdeen and elsewhere in Scotland. It is seen as the successor to the North Sea oil industry. The Severn Barrage has problems. A massive investment and a work which will take years to complete but it is critically subject to sea levels. Although they will definitely rise, it is not yet known with enough accuracy, how much. Too bad if we build a 12 foot dam in a 13 foot sea.

Its purely a question of power plant and system economics because it directly affects what the "downstream" market has to pay for its energy.('Downstream" the fancy business model name for the consumer).Of course the environment is another important dimension which will affect the price of energy.So whatever medium is used to generate power,the minimum cost before added value,ie profit, will be composed of installed capital charges,fuel, operational and maintenance costs and decommisioning costs based on a the life of the generating plant.

Windpower as I said,can never be the core of power generation in a industrial based economy.Further,it is inflexible to Grid System control in the regulation of generation to match demand.It can't be called on in an emergency to quickly ramp up its output.The wind cannot be predicted despite research and the availability of Wind Atlas information.On a cold foggy winter's day, the very part of the season when there is a likelihood of maximum power demand or required assistance from connected generators to sustain grid faults,windpower cannot contribute as conventional plants be they, fossil fired plants or nuclear plants.

Denmark has an incentive sheme whereby private stakeholders can buy a wind generator and share in its rewards.I know of one 450kw wind generator in an East Jutland village, a quality engineering job,commissioned in the spring of 1992 with an ownership of 16 stakeholders.Its capital price was about 100.000 pounds based on the exchange rate at the time. About 5 years ago it was showing its age and started to require deeper maintenance which the group did not wish to face.It was offered for sale and a power company offered the equivalent of 15.000 pounds.The group would not sell at this price but finally sold it later to a power company for 30.000 pounds equivalent. I suppose they were happy to take the profits out of the scheme until they anticipated a reduction in return.

The Severn barage scheme will never get off the ground without public money I do not think there is a large capital dam scheme successfully projected in the world without public money.Unless the project is as "The Three Gorges",the installed hydroplant will be low head, low capacity units.The installation capital charges/kwh will be uneconomical to the free market.Dams and barrage schemes are very expensive but on the other hand will have a life of well over a hundred years and the running costs are lower than a conventional power plant.However, abundant supplies of water are required if the plant is to be continually base loaded.For instance, looking at the Hoover Dam,its electricity generation load factor is less than 20% which means an average load of 400 mws.If it was used as base load,it would drain Lake Meade above it. but we have to remember the prime reason for its construction was to safely regulate the flow of the Colorado river.However its main electrical plant is now on its second updating /renewal and it is safe to say that the dam civil engineering will be sound in 2050.

Regarding future nuclear generation,it looks as if the two German companies,E ON and RWE (leading players in the UK energy market) are to be in alliance for their intended nuclear generation projects.EDF who bought out British Energy for 12.5 billion pounds (with British Gas sneaking in on the deal with a 2.5 billion pound share) with the promise of four nuclear EPRs, have now said that to build UK nuclear plants they will require subsidies just as those for wind farms.(They already have wind power generation in service.)

It is a strange state of economics when EDF, a foreign power undertaking, own a large chunk of British electricity retail and generation assets.Efforts to privatise EDF has been rather slow and 85% of it remans nationalised.It is right to conclude that France's nuclear generation programme would have only been delivered by public money.Since the 1990s,British Energy stood still as regards its nuclear generation assets when it could have engineered another PWR such as that they owned at Sizewell B.

The wind power installed at Ypres's is all part of the prevailing power generation equation.

Thank you for that Frank.
You obviously know what you are about.
A balanced veiw for a change without politics.
Bob

Hi McDerms

Actually I have done more than 'a little reading' into the subject.

You believe that windfarms are a sustainable source of energy - fine - thats your prerogative....

And its mine to contend that they are a hideous blot on the landscape - as well as an appalling waste of time.

Wind turbines can be dismantled and removed quickly, unlike a nuclear power station.

I don't know factually, but I would suggest that wind power of some sort has probably been a feature of this landscape for centuries, such as in windmills.

Well, not to add to the debate. Only meant as a visual break ...

Dragoon Camp Cemetery yesterday evening 9 pm

Aurel

Artillery Wood Cemetery, Boezinge too, a week ago.

Aurel



And another one of a week ago : Colne Valley Cemetery.
A bit disrespectable, for I was lying flat on my belly.

Aurel

Don't care what anyone says it spoils the view for me, at least with a pylon you don't have to move much to get it out of the picture

I don't think anyone particularly likes them. I'm simply commenting that they are less permanent and far less intrusive than a nuclear power station. Nor are they taking up as much [battlefield] land as coppice willow for thermal power generation.

I haven't made a statistic enquiry in Boezinge yet, but it seems to me that in a way most people do not really dislike them. (Sorry, Dragon, some may even like them. :-),
And after a month or so we are already getting used to them. (Though we have not seen the nine of them in full operation simultaneously yet.)

On the other hand, I admit that in association with cemeteries it can hardly be called a nice view. But then, 99,9 % of the Boezinge population see them in 99.9 % of the occasions non-related to cemeteries ...

Are they monstrous ? For some they may be, for some they are not ... The wings in motion may even have something majestic or elegant ...

Steve said : "It spoils the view for me". The important part is : "for me". For some the view is spoiled, for some it is not. (The latter are the lucky ones ?)
As I said before : beauty (and monstrosity too) is in the eye of the beholder ...

Aurel

Fair comment. I oughtn't to have generalised. I suppose what I mean is that they will never blend in, but will always look alien - though peaceful and majestic in some settings, sinister in others. I would far rather have wind turbines than more permanent, massive structures, and some of the things they are growing for biofuels don't enhance the landscape either.

Whatever the GWF thinks, battlefield archeology and cemetery views are not going to be a basis for an energy policy.

my opinion, they are no more intrusive than the roads that we all use to get about, they are here to stay and there will be more in the future, no they won't save the planet, it's change, it's a living landscape, and as aurel says most of the locals don't mind, so respect the fact we brits are guests when in ypres, get our country right before we start criticising others might be a good start

A fair point Willy.

I live in near Ieper and I like the windmills. Looking at Aurel's photos, why focus on the windmills and not the industrial estate below?

Hugh

I also live in Ieper and when they first went up, I'll be honest I was horrified! However the strange thing is this, a few weeks down the line and I actually now find them quite interesting and beautiful! It's amazing how quickly one gets used to new sights and sounds.

I might even get one for my house!!

Like it or not, the EU is committed to a target of 20% of its generating capacity from renewables by 2020 with member states then having the option to further increase or maintain the renewable base.

The EU have set the Biomass generation base at 10% by 2020 but its a contentious issue as I see it, as it is difficult to accept the scheme being carbon neutral for UK power companies are planning to import wood chips from Scandinavia and Canada.

Windpower generation is far from economic.The 1kw machines imported from China cost 1500 pounds plus installation costs which realises a capital cost/kw installed, far in excess of nuclear power,no matter what reactor type is selected. Then there is the maintenance costs and a lower overall life than conventional plant.

Windpower generation is welcome when there is no other power generation fuel source available such as that experienced by Denmark during the German occupation of the the Second World War.Innovation led to the Danes manufacturing small windpower generators which formed the base for the post war R&D which saw the development of the larger windpower generators.Even so the present unit maximum capacity is less than 5 mws and this figure would be considered as from the cutting edge of windpower technology.

I was at one of my favourite sites last November - the Audregnies/Elouges/Wiheries lacation of the 1st Chehsire stand on 24 August 1914.

Had the 9th Lancers and the 4th DG had to the undertake their heroic charge today they would now have a line of these dredful things to aim for on the hill overlooking this battlefield site. I'm sorry I can't post any photos, I just couldn't bring myself to record the desecration. (Yes, I know all about the green energy stuff - load of ...).

Graham

Graham,

Dreadful things ? Desecration ?
Dreadfulness and desecration too can be in the eye of the beholder.
Fortunately not in mine, for I live nearby.

Aurel

They dont look that bad, however i have found out that they are actually not for the Ieper or surrounding residents power supply, they are actually for sale to the businesses on the industrial park, a friend of a customer has bought one and had a guided tour of his new toy, he then found out that his factory would not use all the energy that it provided and is selling the excess onto others, so it's really a money making scheme, typical Ieper/Belgium.