I was listening to some local farmers talking, and they said that a farmer in St Jan has recently "levelled his land" by removing a pair of ww1 bunkers, and this has come to light when somebody made a complaint about it.

Can anyone add anything to this?

Hugh

Hi Hugh,
This sounds like Cambrai Redoubt to me. Suggest you speak to PB about it when you meet up later this week.
Cheers
Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy.

Found it, though. Here in the paper:-

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/Article/Detail.as...p;postcode=8900

They were in a field alongside the A19 just before the final junction - Verlorenhoekstraat near St Jan. Two bunkers broken into pieces with a pneumatic hammer.

Anyone got any before/after pictures?

Hugh
$>(

Sorry it's in Dutch, but maybe some of you... :-)
Well, the first link shows a modern aerial pic of the area where the bunker was.

http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/viewtopic.php?t=18879

And this one because it contains a photo I took some years ago. Ypres spires in the background centre.
(Scroll down to 13 Mei 20:02)

http://forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/viewtopi...p=273616#273616

Aurel

I can see that this is an illegal act. If prosecuted and found guilty, what is the likely punishment?

I took these pictures in April, 2006:

And the inside:

Great photographs, such a pity they are no more.


Mick

The newspaper article says that the farmer had a permit for 'levelling' of his field, and as this work was being carried out, he took the opportunity to remove two bunkers. This exceeded the bounds of his permit, and he has been given a caution and the case handed to legal authorities.
The bunkers were not removed in one piece so that anything could be saved, but broken up with a pneumatic drill.

Continues: This is all the more striking because the In Flanders Fields Museum will shortly be renewed. In the new museum, much more attention will be paid to relics of the war in the landscape.

The farmers whom I was talking to said that the guy surely knew that it was illegal, but just did it in the hope that nobody would notice, and if someone did complain, he calculated that the fine would be only a small amount.

Looking at those great photos, it's an absolute bleedin' disaster for the preserved war landscape of Ieper, as the bunker in the photo looked in excellent state of repair and would last another hundred years, when most of the rest have crumbled away.

The landowners really need to get more of a sense of how many people value these objects as the physical reminders of a titanic struggle and a massive accumulation of suffering and death. Really the punishment should be for the culprit to pay the entire bill for a complete restoration of the objects. The cost of that would make others think twice.

Hugh

Front side of the bunker in 1998

Cnock

Ken,

thanks for the inside view!

Cnock

Anything known about their history, before they fade into oblivion?

Roel

Jeremy (above) is completely right that these are part of the 'Cambrai Redoubt" bunker system. See here:-

http://www.firstworldwar.com/today/50thnor...iandivision.htm

The Dutch forum pointed to by Aurel is way ahead of us on this event, but it's all too late. Good map, photo and lists of trenches and bunkers in the defensive system there. Interested to know any of their history, as Roel asked.

Thanks Hugh (and Jeremy)

Roel

Quite agree Hugh.
Just to let the forum know that Lord Faulkner of Worcester, Chairman of The All-Party Parliamentary War Graves & Battlefields Heritage Group, will be sending a letter to the Belgian authorities asap with regard to some clarification on the protection of these concrete structures.

Hello,

this weekend I visited a farmer who had an interesting German bunker on his land
he pointed out to me :
-thanks to many farmers bunkers are still existing, as most of them are on farmland, he had several occasions to remove the bunker but didn't want to;
-sometimes people ask the impossible, he was asked to make a footpath to the bunker for visitors, but the bunker is one mile away on his land, several fences and ditches have to be crossed,
-at one occasion he let Belgian schoolboys visit the bunker, they had vandalized the bunker by painting graffiti in and outside. He considered this as a lack of respect.

Cnock

Being a person who knows nothing about farming, i dont see the problem about having a bunker in a field, apart from having to steer around it.
i mean how much wheat or whatever he grows would a bunker be the equivalent to. A sack? who knows? (thats not a question by the way)

I think if a few of the farmers dug a nice entrance tunnel to a bunker and made it a bit of a tourist attraction, i would be the first to throw a few quid into a donation box hung at the door.

But yep i know, someone would nick the donation box. And then the drinking fraternity would fill the bunker full of empty vino collapso bottles. And then dont forget the graffitti boys and those that need a toilet.

Sadly i think i have answered my own question about why the bunkers are dissappearing and the donation box would never work.

Ian

In this case, the bunkers are gone in order to plant some extra.... potatoes. It's a huge potato field - I went to look at the site last week. Something to think about when you're next having some frites.
Hugh

Very sad loss

problem is, some farmers eventually get fed up with uninvited visitors flattening crops and using bunkers as toilets, it's just another problem
to deal with on a day to day basis, answer remove the attraction, and in most cases it takes a fair bit of effort and money to do. sometimes we are our own worst enemy and threaten the very object of our intrest by visiting it.

I walked my dog past the Catapillar last night and being an ex falconry trained dog, she came up on a good point against a German bunker on the edge of the railway embankment. Of course my peregrine is long gone but the dog just does what she is trained to do and that is to locate and point feather so of course, out of interest I moved in quitely to see what she had found. I expected a pheasant or maybe a wood cock and peered into said bunker... It was orrible! My dog was pointing a huge pile of pooh and a ginormous pair of blokes pants!!! I guess she needs some re training if I ever decide on a new falcon

Bunkers and crap holes go together it seems so I can understand why some land owners wish for them to be removed but it will be a great shame if they disapear.

Chris.

[quote name='chrislock' date='Jun 29 2009, 11:20 AM' post='1212871']


is she a german shorthaired pointer chris lol

ps of course i know she isn't but i couldn't resist, anyway bears out my point from the previous post yours

Is there also a society for putting a carrier bag full of rubbish in every bunker?
I found an intact bunker deep in Battle Wood a few weeks ago, and thought, wow! Bet not many people have seen this. But someone from the Society for Putting a Carrier Bag Etc had been there previously.

Chris, I was walking my dog too. Do you think one day our dogs might meet?

Hugh.

It's unfortunately not a new occurrence. When Flanders & Swann wrote "The Society of British Bedstead Men" about fifty years ago it was a comment on littering in what we often think of as halcyon days. The chorus goes:

Oh, the hammer ponds of Sussex and the dew ponds of the West
Are part of Britain's heritage, the part we love the best
Every eel and fish and mill pond has a beauty all can share
But not unless it's got a big, brass, broken bedstead there

Keith

I'm trying to think of a rhyme for 'rubbish'.

Hi Hugh.

They may just do one day, just keep an eye out for a Border Collie doing pointer impressions, usually for the benefit of rabbits, pheasants, Wood cock and the such however, Mr Whippys and gigantic pants are usually ignored. Maybe at the age of 13 she is getting a bit confused, just like me! We usualy walk through Shrewsbury Forest or Sanctuary Wood. It's mostly deserted there today, even when elsewhere is throbbing.

And behave please Willy, or I might just tell you about the story of my Peregrine " Chase" and one of your prize Cock Pheasants...

Chris.

[quote name='chrislock' date='Jun 29 2009, 04:44 PM' post='1213060']

ah well let me see is that peregrine i have in a nice glass case? lol and anyway where have you been hiding, i have been over about 12-14 times this year and not seen you once!! over again this week i will keep an eagle eye out!!

You don't just take a pneumatic drill to a bunker, to destroy and remove a bunker that size take a bit of planning and forethought and a big piece of equipment. Not many were interested in the state of the thing before it was removed or can you tell me that over the years interested parties had shown any interest other than taking pictures of it.

Mick

[quote name='(Hugh)' date='May 18 2009, 08:28 PM' post='1187066']



why should the landowners be dictated to by those of us with an interest in a subject, which they have to live with daily in the form of unexploded ordnance,
bunkers and tourists who care not where they walk, and when challenged think they have some divine right to roam where they like. If these bunkers were so important why had no one stepped forward and purchased them? no we all like to visit the battlefields but we don't seem to have the foresight or the will to get the remaining remains protected by getting our hands in our pockets, because gentlemen they don't belong to us, and to protect costs money.
don't get me wrong here, it's a crying shame when anything goes for ever, look at boezinghe, but we have no right to suggest that once gone, they should be rebuilt, nonsense, as they say action speaks louder than words.

Well if you have been over here that amount of times, why havn't you banged on my door? You know where I live and you know where I work! So next time you visit, how about it and then we can talk about the good ol days and a certain little Welsh bloke with a useless dog and even more useless falcon!! Now where's my beer gone......

[quote name='chrislock' date='Jun 29 2009, 09:18 PM' post='1213217']


see you soon then, been looking out for you at essex, so i will come find you and go have a beer and yep we will make his ears burn, stay lucky, stay safe.

Yeah, just because our grandfathers died trying to save the place, why should we have a say when a bloke wants to grow an extra kilo of potatoes? Bulldoze the lot then, and let's forget about it.

The whole thrust of Ieper's town plan is to attract tourists to the battlefields. They get 300 000 visitors a year to a place with 35 000 inhabitants. "We" don't have to put our hands in our pockets, everyone who makes a special visit to Ieper does that. But the point is, if the Belgian authorities don't get off their arses and protect the remaining battlefield remnants, there won't be so much to draw in the extra visitor numbers they're planning for.

I dont have a dog or a Falcon and behave you two


Tafski

True, a bunker has been demolished, and this is sad.
Can the Belgian authorities be blamed for what this farmer did ?
Maybe they can. (Maybe !)
But suggesting that the Belgian authorities are sitting on their *rses doing nothing is in my opinion a little unfair.
"A few things" have been done in the past years.

Maybe this was in order to attract tourists, so just being "selfish" ?
Is attracting tourists unethical ?
I can't help being a little irritated by people (and in most cases from abroad) telling us that "tourism" is not a good thing here. (Even that promoting Ypres as a Peace Town is bad.)
And please, don't mention poppy chocolates and helmet shaped chocolates. Ypres "batlefield economy" is more than that.

Aurel

Farmers get paid rent for pylons, aerials and masts on their land, why not a small rent from the government for keeping bunkers.

Mick

[quote name='(Hugh)' date='Jun 30 2009, 01:06 AM' post='1213309']


the belgian authorities have done and are still doing plenty to preserve, on the whole they do a very good job.
There is plenty to draw tourists and the vast majority of "attractions" will never, and i mean never be removed or threatened.
It strikes me as ironic that we are getting somewhat worked up over bunkers that both sides did their level best to destroy.
Often the best way to protect buildings and land, is to leave it in private ownership, and keep tourists out, but i guess that would not suit either,
take newfoundland park on the somme, wonderful trenches, and a very special place, but look at the criticism that has been made because some areas are out of bounds to tourists.
Look what has happened recently around yorkshire trench, Boezinghe,no pre building clearance, no chance to recover soldiers remains, now that is something worth getting hot under the collar about.

oh and yes, my grandfather died on the somme, and his remains would probably not have been recovered had it not been for re building and for that i am eternally thankful.

I knew I was in for that, GSP indeed! Look at this then! http://www.lillegateguesthouse.com/newimag...e1_fullsize.jpg Far more intelligent by half likewise.

Now behave please or I will invite the big fella over and tell him that the beers are on you all weekend!!!

[quote name='chrislock' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:56 AM' post='1214811']
I knew I was in for that, GSP indeed! Look at this then! http://www.lillegateguesthouse.com/newimag...e1_fullsize.jpg Far more intelligent by half likewise.


lol, see you soon.

Or better still not be able to use any of the land that he reclaimed and a plaque put there instead