Hi

I was exploring the French sector at Gallipoli recently, an area that has received sparse official coverage. A little to the NE of the ruins of Zimmerman's farm there are two still-deep pits, too wide to be mule trenches, embanked on either side and at one end. I can lodge photos if required. These are orientated in line northward. I have precise GPS co-ordinates.

In discussion locally with Eric Goossens, he suggested the possibility that these were dug specifically for the Rolls Royce armoured cars used by the RND at Helles. Geographically this makes sense, since the location is reachable by tracks and lies right on the border of the RND and French areas.

I wonder if anyone has any info or leads on this? The RND history does not reach this level of detail. Appreciating that this is an extreme long-shot, if anyone has a photo of the vehicles in their protected positions it may be possible to correlated the location.

I am also trying to find info on the 'lost' French memorials which lie in the surrounding woods. As well as the better known one east of Zimmerman's, I visited three others of pyramid/monolith style, which are now derelict and lost in the trees and scrub. The plaques from these, I understand, have been relocated to the walls of the nearby French cemetery.

With thanks

Andy

Our GWF Pal 'Krithia' is something of an expert on the armoured cars at Gallipoli
A PM to him should help
The cars [I think that there were motor-cycles too] were part of the RNAS and not in the strictest sense part of the RND

I've often wondered if the various remains of French memorials relate to the sites of the different French cemeteries, before they were all concentrated at the present location

regards
Michael

Hi Andy,

I have had debates with both Eric and Len Sellers on these pits and I think almost certain they are not the pits dug for the armoured cars. See photo attached. If I remember correctly the Zimmermans Farm pits face a north-south direction so I think they are more likely artillery positions, ammunition storage or maybe winter quarters. Some say they are modern and for locals to dump rubbish, this I disagree again, no local would go through the effort in digging large pits like this and old tree growth shows they have been there some time, so probably vintage.

See photo below from my collection, behind is observation ridge, now, is this taken from the west or the east? If from the east it puts it in the position of Zimmermans Farm but maybe lower down in the valley, if the west side it would be closer Pink Farm. The location being Zimmermans I think it correct, however are these the pits you mention?

Your comments ...

regards, Steve

Click to view attachment

if anyone has a photo of the vehicles in their protected positions it may be possible to correlated the location.

see http://www.rrec.org.uk/Cars/Rolls-Royce_Ar...s_in_Action.php
IVth picture down

Eric's website has some good info on the original French cemeteries and memorials

http://www.gallipoli.com.tr/if_stones_coul...nt_cemetery.htm

here is another one i have,my comment would be that there is high possibility that where the photos were taken are somewhere close to the zimmerman farm area,as last time when i was there, i came across a few trenches which i think might have been used for these cars

willy

Andy,

You wrote - A little to the NE of the ruins of Zimmerman's farm there are two still-deep pits

This does not describe a trench at Zimmerman's Farm, but refers to somewhere c.5/8th of a mile to the east of there [Is this the same area?]
However, it does describes the sort of dug-outs found by the RND when they took over the French sector – very large & commodious accommodation by British standards
"The quarters themselves consisted of double-elephant dugouts; semicircular iron shelters built into the ground, each holding, in our case, eight chaps. As regards weather and whizz-bangs they were a great improvement on our last camp."
[The ref to 'semicircular iron shelters' refers to the roofing material (Made in England incidentally)] But the refs to 'double elephant dug-out' and 'holding in our case eight chaps' could well describe the sort/size of thing which was also found closer to Zimmerman's Farm
Quotes from Len Sellers' magazine 'RND Royal Naval Division' issue No.21, June 2002, pages 204>
'With the RNDE Royal Naval Divisional Engineers in Gallipoli' by Eric Wettern; papers housed in the Liddle Collection, Brotherton Library, University of Leeds.


One pos explanation
Michael

Andy,

Here are a couple of maps to help pin-point the 'double-elephant' dug-out described above
The top map is British and the bottom map is French [note that they are NOT the same scale]




The passage which I quoted described a dug-out at 'Poste Thivol'

Is this anywhere near the trench which you saw?


[Note on edits:
I've tried the maps side-by-side, and then one on top of the other
but am not sure which is best
If anyone prefers the former, then let me know and I will change them again
regards
Michael]

Another thing, these pits or dugouts appear too wide when compared to the wartime photos of those holding the armoured cars.

From memory 'Poste Thivol' appears the approx location of these dugouts, I think, but without GPS it is difficult to tell exactly.

From memory 'Poste Thivol' appears the approx location of these dugouts, I think, but without GPS it is difficult to tell exactly.

Thanks Steve, your opinion is appreciated
When are we next to have a drink again at the Cozy Pub?
It's your round if I remember correctly

best regards
Michael

Funny enough I will be at Cozy Pub this time next week. I'll get a drink waiting, no promises keeping it cool if you're late!!!!

best wishes, Steve

Click to view attachment

I really appreciate the wealth of information that you have been able to supply chaps. What a great forum this is!

The precise lat/long cords for the pits, from my Garmin Etrex, are:

40.062724° N
26.210157° E

This places the them 140 metres from Zimmerman's Farm on a bearing of 42 degrees true. They are just off the track on the right, on the western edge of what appears as Snipers Wood on contemporary maps, and on that uploaded by Michael. Willy's modern picture is certainly of the pits I saw recently. (Yes, full of rubbish ...)

Steve, I am intrigued by the photo you kindly uploaded. If as you say, the ridge behind is Observation hill, then I think the photo can only have been taken from east, that is, in the vicinity of Zimmerman's Farm. My reasoning for this is that if you look at the shadow of the officer standing in the pit, to the right of one of the vehicles, it clearly fall to the right, ad does that of the plank. This, and the shortness of the shadows, fits with the sun being above on the left, that is generally southwards. To fit in Observation hill from a western viewpoint at Pink Farm, the sun would have to be almost in the north, which is not of course astronomically possible. Even allowing that the picture could have been late evening in high summer, when the sun would have set in the NW, it still does not look right, because the shadows would bequite lengthened. I stand to be corrected, but my feeling is that this picture was taken looking west, somewhere in the RND or French sector.

Here's a related matter. Looking at Google Earth, there is a clearing or field .7 km north north east of the French cemetery on a bearing of 17.5 degrees true. The central path in the cemetery acts almost as a pointer. In the clearing there is a discernible diagonal line. Using trench maps overlaid on GE places the line of the French light railway on this feature, or very close to it. The imagery is from 2006. Last week, when I flew to Canakkale, I was fortune to have a window seat as we came in over the peninsula. I spotted the clearing, now obviously a ploughed field, but there was no path or line discernible. Next day, on the ground, I made my way there. I discovered that the field carried a definite shalllow depression, about a metre wide, precisely following the GE line, which in 2006 was preumably a crop mark. It does not look like a trench line - it is absolutely straight and uniform. More research is needed, maybe even a bit or quick spade-work, but I am moderately confident that this was the path of the light railway.

My GE working map is attached. 005 and 006 are the located lines of Avenue de Paris and Avenue de Constantinople, about 8 metres apart and still impressively deep.

Andy

Funny enough I will be at Cozy Pub this time next week. I'll get a drink waiting, no promises keeping it cool if you're late!!!!

Enjoy your Efes Pils and mine's an Efes Dark, as usual.
If I am held up, then don't let it go to waste will you

Have a good trip
Michael