I have some aerials from Fort Genois at Lille but cannot find the today`s location on a modern map/satellite map. Any clues where this Fort might be ?

Fort Génois means Genoese/Genovese Fortress (as in Genoa). Not sure if this is a particular design of fortress or specifically a fortress built by the Genoese. Are the aerials clear enough to give clues to Pals who know Lille?

Well this is in the context of Lille. Should be easy, right? But I cannot make it up in a modern satellite map at all.

I have never heard of this fort so I looked long and hard at the 1708 siege map of Lille which shows all the fortifications and can find no Fort Genois or even a place called Genois. This is a real puzzler as unlike Liege, Lille was not built with lots of forts surrounding it but as a walled city with a citadel. I will be fascinated when someone comes along with an answer to this (or embarrassed if its an obvious answer

Jim

Looking at Google Earth I'd say Lille and Genois appear to be much further apart than on the aerial. So I wonder if the pic is correct...

Roel

Roel thats what I ask myself too! I will post the other 2 pics as well - But they are not as conclusive as the posted. I see discrepencies on the 2 other as well.

Here are all other photos the WW I author has marked 'Genois near Lille'

This one looks different to me. Winter photo w/snow

The last one. It shows the nearby town of Genois (Genois bei Lille). Maybe helpful for identification

I've been googling a bit, and there are more "fort Genois" around the world: also in Tunesia, Algeria and near Cannes. Some websites talk about "a fort Genois by Vauban", when they mean the fort at the island of st. Marguerite near Cannes. Vauban is also the man who designed the citadel around Lille. Therefore I think "fort Genois" doesn't necessarily refer to the actual name of the fort on the aerial, but to a type of fort.

Roel

Roel – see my post #2. I can't find a place called Genois anywhere near Lille. A fortification of that name might have disappeared over the years or been re-named, but a place would surely still be the same, even if by now absorbed into greater Lille.

Missed your post, but it looks we have the same opinion.

Roel

Roel

How are you finding anywhere called Genois - all my searching finds no town of that name and the last photo does not show a small place. What am I missing here!!

Jim

You're not missing that much, Jim. I've been a bit too quick in my conclusions. The "Genois" I found on Google Earth isn't a town, but some company by that name...
Haven't found any other Genois near Lille, so I'll trust on what I've written in post #10.

Roel

I wonder if it was Fort de Mons, which is due East of the Lille Citadel?

Click to view attachment

Robert

I am getting fussed. Found a couple of Lille forts :
Fort de Mons-en-Baroeul

Fort de Premesques

Ouvrage de Lompret

Fort de Bondues

Fort de Seclin

but none matches. When zooming through google maps sat view I see also some minor forts/ouvrages.

The picture in post no 9 has been identified by Alain Dubois ,member here and also in a French forum where the pictures are being discussed. It is actually Le Quesnoy NOT Genois!!! Bravo.
So where is the British sportsmanship to beat the French colleagues in identifying the 2 different forts shown in the other pictures and most likely also wrong-named 'Genois'?
The direction it is said in the French forum points more towards Maubeuge area

I still think that Genois is being used not as a proper name but as a descriptor for a particular type of fortress. As Roel said earlier, Vauban, who fortified Lille, is also associated with the refortification of the old Genoese fortress (fort génois) at Cannes. So I think the German observer is using Fort Genois and Genois to mean fortifications by/in the style of/of the period of Vauban.

Mick

Could be Mick! Sounds reasonable .

Besides the ongoing identification of the other pics, here is a stunning sample what google earth can do: if you look at the height in the following pic (lower right) you discover that the original photograph of Le Quesnoy was taken at appr. 1750 ft, unbelievable correct.

The style of fortress layout is typical of those Vauban forts I have visited. Diagram. There's a programme about le Quesnoy here (in French).

Gwyn

I'm glad all this was sorted out. it was "doin' me hed in"

Jim

Hell no Jim, nothing is over unfortunately. The forts in pictures number 3,7 and 8 are still not identified. Only the town pic is solved. 3,7,and 8 show different forts I believe. Please carry on racking your brains

Here is a link to a map with the forts that ringed Lille in 1914. http://www.fortiff.be/iff/index.php?p=1756 If you click on the forts and other fortified works, you will see lost of recent photos.

Also, I recommend use the French version of Google Earth for sites within France or is possessions, it has better resolution. http://www.geoportail.fr/visu2D.do?ter=metropole

Cheers, Marc

Thanx Marc, I have found the fortresse site earlier today and have already reviewed all Lille forts per google earth. I did not find any matching contours to the pictures posted here. Its a real enigma

Mick, I understand the point you are making. The problem, however, is the village that was clearly marked as Genois on the photograph. Of course the labelling may be wrong, but my approach FWIIW is to return to this possibility if all others have been ruled out. The map of the Lille-related fortifications is very helpful. If the photograph is labelled correctly, then the fortification was very very close to what was the built-up area of Lille at that time.

Robert

Egbert, I rotated the aerial photograph and then reversed it. The result is compared with the Google view of Fort de Mons.

Click to view attachment

Robert

Next I took the aerial photograph in the context of Lille and 'Genois'. I highlighted the shape of the fort in white. Then rotated the image to align with shape of Fort de Mons. The main road from Lilles to Fort Genois, and thence to Genois, were drawn in white too. I have attempted to reproduce them in red on the Google map. The assumption I made is that the key road to the fort must have run west-east, because the centre of Lille is due west of Fort de Mons. There is still a direct road to the area, which I have followed with a red line. I then added a branch road in the approximate direction of the aerial photograph. A possible area for 'Genois' is circulated with a red dotted line on the Google map.

Click to view attachment

Robert

The alternative is something like this, which doesn't seem right although it more closely aligns with the photograph.

Click to view attachment

Robert

Robert I did the same yesterday. Though I am not convinced it is Ft de Mons: the v-shaped footprint pattern is not there and the houses and the 2 (y-shaped) roads are not visible. I would not put my hands into the fire for the houses, but the relativ large road should be still visible. I have excluded Ft de Mons mainly for the different footprint pattern . What do you think?

Robert I checked your next 2 posts and images. First of all don't you think also that image post no 7 and 8 are 2 different forts? And the image with Genois, the fort and Lille I think in the meantime is mislabeled. Your ideas might work, but I am still hesitating because none of the street patterns fit into today's street layout. We need a Lille and surrounding street map from the 1910-20s to validate the theory.

May I also draw the attention on the discussions here in the French forum where they are also guessing. (Although I do not understand everything due to language barrier). Maybe that helps avoiding duplication of research.

That photo has now been identified as Le Quesnoy, Robert, and there is no place called Genois.

Mick, the close-up photograph of 'Genois bei Lille' certainly looks like Le Quesnoy. But the aerial view that I used in the analysis above may have a different 'Genois', IMHO. If that photo was also mislabelling Le Quesnoy, then there is is major problem. First, any photograph taken from the west (or any direction other than above the forest) towards Le Quesnoy would have the huge Foret de Mormal in the background. If the photo was taken from above Foret de Mormal, then the location of the fort is wrong. And it is difficult to know what 'Lille' is referring to.

Unfortunately I don't have access to my WW1 map of Lille at the moment.

Robert

Egbert, here is an alternative view of the Fort de Mons.

Click to view attachment

Robert

Robert this image is striking and makes sense except for the missing 3 houses and the non matching road pattern. It would be so much convincing if we had only a 1914ish aerial from the whole of the fort and surroundings. In the French forum Florian is convinced it is Fort de Bondues,
which I doubt

Many subsidiary forts/ouvrages by or in the style of Vauban are virtually identical, so it may be almost impossible to categorically identify those shown in the aerial photos.

I thought I had posted some supplementary questions to Egbert, but they don't seem to have appeared, so here goes again: Are the aerial photos official prints from an archive source, or are they from a private collection? Are they necessarily all from the same sortie (evidently not in the case of the winter image)? If they come from a private collection, they could perhaps have been captioned from memory or supposition, some time after the event, and some may have been inadvertently mis-identified.

There is a Rue St Génois in Lille. It is in the city centre, so not a direct clue perhaps.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&sa...019312&z=16

Egbert, the area around Fort de Mons has been extensively redeveloped in modern times. The fort itself appears to have fallen into disrepair. The mismatch on the other buildings and roads may not be significant. That said, I agree with Mick that the style was common. At best, I would say that the outline of Fort de Mons is entirely consistent with, but not diagnostic of, 'Fort de Genois' in the specific photo. Several of the internal features appear to line up too.

Robert

In answering the above questions to Mick and Robert:
Its a private collection, definitely not from the same mission. The author and photographer obviously managed to 'get' images for his own privat purposes and added handwritten relevant information like the Genois inscriptions before reproducing them in his Armeeflugpark photo lab. So mistakes are imminent. I have found already another mistake where he identifies a Fort Manonviller as such, but he is wrong. (This photo is also an enigma and may be published here later for possible identification.) (The Le Quesnoy image was another mistake mislabelled Genois)To make it short:
I have the very strong impression that the images 'Genois bei Lille' are wrong labelled. Lille area is fine as he was stationed there for some time. I have reviewed all Lille forts on google earth but have not found substantial proven evidence where I could say 'this is it'. But 4,6 or more eyes see more; I still hope to substantiate the possible location of the 3 unidentified forts. I believe the remaining 3 fort images are all different forts/ouvrages and Genois is bloody wrong labelled

Not if it's used as a descriptive term (like 'polygonal fortress') rather than as a name.

I reckon the big fort is Le Quesnoy (lukunwa) .It's ok for a visit,was there on sunday morning.
I also reckon that the 2 photos (normal & with snow) are of fort D'Englos.
You can visit the main fort in Lille but need to phone in advance as the Army still use it.Seclin's ok & has a nice tank collection.
Dave.

Sorry Dave, I doubt very much it is Fort Englos. Compared with the modern google picture the fort was a true trapezium form which does not match the lower left =see the 2 circled differences, and neither the upper left= different length of trapezium form

One of the 3 pics is solved. French forum member florian has cracked the enigma with solid evidence. The following fort is Fort de Bondues. Well done! 2 more to go

....

May I enter a suggestion.
Before the War,and during,the British,and I am sure the French and German's,prepared Maps of Lille,including the surrounding Forts.
I have a WW1 vintage British Map(large scale) of Lillle,and its surrounding fortifications.
As an objective research exercise,into the Forts surrounding Lille,in 1914,should not the contemporary Maps be consulted?
George

Egbert, is there an equivalent plan for Fort de Mons?

I found a WW1 map of Lille. The city was much smaller then, as expected. I have overlaid the earlier plan on a Google map. The original pattern of major roads around Fort de Mons does not appear to match the aerial view.

Click to view attachment

Robert

I am afraid there is no plan of the fort in the www. At least I did not find any.....