QUOTE

Provost Marshals in Cairo and Alexandria (Units and Formations / 14 January 2009)

Has anyone any ancestor who was a Provost Marshal in Cairo or Alexandria? My grandfather, Ernest William Smith, was a Deputy Assistant Provost Marshal Class FF in Cairo from 2.8.19, and worked for the Deputy Assistant PM in Alexandria before that, from 2.12.18. Would anyone have any diaries or letters which would throw light on what the PMs had to contend with at that time? I think there were student riots happening in Cairo.

Mary


UNQUOTE

Mary Williams and I are both trying to find information about the APM Cairo in 1919 as their seems to be a possible connection between her grandfather E W Smith and Lt-Col John Barromew Hay DSO, who is of interest to me.
Hay was one of a small group sent from England (end 1914) to help set up a new Intelligence Office at Cairo. The others all became famous, wrote books, had books written about them, T E Lawrence being the most famous, of course. But Hay just disappeared once he'd arrived in Cairo, and historians couldn't find him, probably because there are so many J Hays in the Army Lists. I eventually found him serving as an Intelligence Officer for the campaign in the Western Desert against the Sanusi. But I still know next to nothing about him. His work was to do with "Tripoli", meaning Libya, and he was watching what the Turks were up to there. I'm guessing that Hay spoke Turkish and had worked for the Ottoman Gendarmerie in Constantinople before the War. Anyway, after the Sanusi War he joined the Military Police. He is buried in Ismailia. He probably died of illness, but there were violent riots in Egypt in 1919 and it's possible that he was caught up in them and died that way. His DSO mention was in the London Gazette of 3.6.1918, but it doesn't say much.
Hay was APM and Smith was DAPM, and I think there may be a connection between them because Hay died 2 August 1919 and Smith arrived in Cairo that same day.



Our problem is this: the National Archives (Kew) appears not to have a file for the APM Cairo (although they do have a file for the Australian APM in Egypt!!!) The WWI expert at Kew says the file is apparently lost. Mary and I are hoping that it's just misplaced or that the information is simply included in some other file to do with GHQ Cairo.



Can anyone help?



Russell

Russell

Maybe not much help and you have probably already seen it but on the restructuring of the "Forces in Egypt" intelligence into the MEF Clayton's staff had a Capt. MacDonnell as "head of the Tripoli desk". Have no ref's for him being replaced by John Hay. But might be a link worth following.

Regards
Dave

Dave,
That’s a good spot, but it was the other way round: Capt. Mervyn Macdonnell replaced Capt. James Hay.
In late 1915 Hay was in Mersa Matruh with the WFF, signing the Intelligence War Diary. But a month or two later his place there is taken by Macdonnell.
I think I know why...
Macdonnell was 35 years old and had been in the Sudan Civil Service (1905-12) – that means he had some Arabic. My theory is that Hay had been in the Ottoman Gendarmerie before the War (like his fellow Intell officers W H Deedes and C J Hawker) and that he therefore spoke some Turkish; that he was sent to Egypt from England because he spoke Turkish. But in the W Desert there was no one to speak Turkish to; the prisoners were all (nearly all) Arabs. Hay’s presence wasn’t justified by the capture of the occasional Turkish prisoner, so he went back to Cairo and before long transferred to the Military Police. He was apparently good at this because he was soon Assistant Provost Marshal and a (local and temp.) Lt-Col. When Hay dies in 1919, E W Smith appears, but we have no evidence yet that he too had been in Intelligence.

If anyone has ANY information about these three men (Mervyn Sorley Macdonnell, James Barromew Hay or Ernest Wm Smith), it would be very welcome.

Regards,
Russell

Russell

Am intrigued - the only ref todate on a James or John Hay in any of my references for Egyptian or MEF intelligence or the Arab Bureau was his appointment to temp. Lieut under Clayton in December 1915 (Mervyn MacDonnell being appointed temp Capt. along with Cornwallis at the same time). However this doesn't mean that much as my material is not that detailed in this area. In fact the only other ref I could find for him at all so far comes from the CWGC / Scottish War Memorial Project "Hay James Barromew Lt Col DSO Egyptian Military Police Force 40 Egypt 02-Aug-19 Son of James & Janet Hay, Binghill, Murtle. City Roll of Honour. Husband of Viola Hay, The Hut, lock Mead, Maidenhead. Assistant Provost Marshal, GHQ Ismailia. War Memorial Cemetery Egypt Ismailia"

Mervyn MacDonnell I have had a little more success with :

Born: 24 July 1880, Sligo, Ireland.
Died: 22 March 1949, Bath, England.
Father: Hercules Henry MacDonnell
Mother: Fannie Keogh Burd

Married: Ethel Gladys Jameson (d. 21 July 1973), February 1908.

Children:

Paula, m. Lt. Paul Markham Whatley, 15 December 1937.
Elizabeth, m. (?) Lt. Anthony Carver, 1939.
Felicity Anne, m. (1) Sub-Lt. Stephan Alastair Strutt(1919-1949), 17 June 1941, m. (2) Brigadier David Campbell Mullen, 28 October 1959

Education:

Elstree
Cheltenham College
Trinity College, Dublin

Career:

1905-1912 Sudan Civil Service
1912-1923 Egyptian Civil Service
1915-1919 General Staff, E.E.F.
1920-1923 Governor Western Desert Province, Egypt
1923-1926 High Commissioner of Danzig
1931 Special Commissioner for the Transjordan frontier settlement
1932-1934 Commissioner for Transitional Payments, Co. Durham
1934 BBC representative for Saar plebiscite

Awarded an OBE

Other information:

His wife was the daughter of James Sligo Jameson, a famous naturalist and African explorer. He was Mervyn's first cousin.

From The Times, 12 April 1949:

Mervyn MacDonnell's death will be deeply regretted by many friends from whose memory his lively and trenchant personality will not easily be effaced. His caustic but humorous comments on the human comedy and the variety of experience from which he illustrated his conversation made him a delightful and unusual companion. He was one of those men in whose society one could not fail to be happy and interested. He made his mark in such diverse regions as Egypt, Danzig, and Geneva, and his talents were worthy of greater official recognition than was actually obtained.

The above from : http://www.cgoakley.demon.co.uk/efa/1880MSM.html

First ref I have for him in the Military Intelligence Office, Cairo is Jun 1915. Promted temp. Capt in the December (see above). T.E. Lawrence states "He has a house on the island in the Nile, where he normally lives with his family". Lawrence actually shared a house with him for a while. He spent time in Gallipoli Aug / Sept 1915. Then under Parker along and along with Woolley and Lawrence he is mentioned in Sir John Maxwells despatches No.IV

As you probably already know from your own research his report on the Sanusi is available at the National Archives at PRO/FO/882/14/NA/18/1. It is cited in Zalewski's summary paper on the Sanusi (drop me a PM w/ an email address if you want a copy and dont have one).

Close British:Italian intelligence connections are also worth exploring. Whilst I cant locate Hay as yet McDonnell (or MacDonell) and subsequently Milo Talbot can be traced through this route. He was awarded the Silver Medal for Military Valour by the Italians at this time.

MacDonell (along with Royle) was part of the negotiation team July - August 1918 with Mohammed Idris. Again MacDonell is cited by Zalewski from this time.

He relinquished his local rank of Major in 1922.

He was also awarded the Order of the Nile for "services while employed under the Egyptian Frontier Districts Administration".

Apologies - still have not been able to get a copy of your book in Hong Kong as yet but will have one soon. So if this is all cross ref'd there pls ignore.

Would love to know more...will keep looking.

Regards
Dave

The only other point worth adding from my side is Aubrey Herbert's ref's to a contingent of MP's serving in Claytons department. Bearing in mind that Maxwell himself was once upon a time a Staff Captain in the Egyptian Military Police, it would make sense that he / Clayton would look there for local expertise.

Just a thought - might be worth following up.

Regards
Dave

His MIC is available here under J. Hay :

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

Showing him Lieut in "Intelligence" and Lt.-Col. in the Egyptian Military Police.

regards
Dave

Dave,
Thank you very much -- you’ve got some good new material there. No, I did not know about the Zalewski paper (it was apparently published after The Sanusi’s Little War), and consequently – I’m embarrassed to say – I’d also missed MacDonnell’s Sanusi report at the NA. We’re just about to leave London for 2 months, but I’ll follow that up on our return in Sept. I did know about Lawrence staying with MacDonnell in July 1916. Apparently M had acute appendicitis, and L was looking after him.

Regarding James Hay, am interested in the Aubrey Herbert reference to the MP’s serving in Clayton’s office. Is this in Mons, ANZAC and Kut? I’ve been thumbing through my copy but can’t find the reference to MPs; nor running a search in the online version. Could the MPs have been Members of Parliament (like Herbert himself and Lloyd) and not Military Police??? The info on Hay from CWGC and Scottish War Memorial is the sum total of personal detail that I’d found about him. I spent a whole day at the NA trying to link him to British secondments to the Ottoman Gendarmerie before the War – unsuccessfully, though I’m still clinging to my theory. I have been able to track him through the Army Lists, though, and there is useful information there:
1. made Temp Lt - 16 Nov 1914;
2. Commands and Staff Appointments
Temp. Lt J Hay – 18 Dec 1914 / Temp Lt C L Woolley – 18 Dec 1914 / 2nd Lt T E Lawrence 15 Dec 1914;
3. Temp. Lt. J Hay made General Staff Officer, 3rd Grade on 1 Dec 1915; and J Hay made Temp Capt while GSO 3rd Grade on 1 Dec 1915;
4. Up to Army List Sept 1917 = No Change;
5. But by July 1918 Local and T/Lt-Col J Hay (DSO) is Asst Provost Marshal
So it would seem that Hay’s move to the Military Police was late in the War.
Hay is not mentioned by Lawrence in the Home Letters: not in the letter of 12/2/15, where L does mention Newcombe, Woolley, Hough ex-consul at Jaffa, Lloyd, Herbert and Graves; nor in his list of 17 members of Intell Section in letter of January 1916).
It’s a real shame the Assistant Provost Marshal file is missing...

Thank you again,
Russell

Russell

Had not considered MP's being members of parliament. Will check again. Sorry but have no access to files during the week so will again be the weekend before I can get back to you.

Got your PM - thanks.

Regards
Dave

There s a J. Hay in the Gordon Highlanders....mobilised territorial at the start of the war. Cant link the two as yet though.

Regards
Dave

Russell

Yigal Sheffy cites J. Hay as being one of the new officers shipped out to Cairo in Dec'14 but also states that his identity not known after this. Have always considered his "British Military Intelligence in the Palestine Campaign" a definitive ref so seems that we are in good company.

Regards
Dave

Dave,
Yes, I always check Sheffy also. But we know know more about Hay than he does!!!
Cheers,
Russell

Couple of other ref's in the same vein :

Michael Yardley has him a Captain moving to reinforce intelligence GHQ Cairo with Herbert and Lloyd in "Backing into the Limelight".
Jeremy Wilson has him as the unconfirmed "5th Officer" in his "Lawrence of Arabia"

There is nothing in Storrs memoirs about him or MacDonnell. Nor can I find him by cross referencing Gertrude Bell or Leonard Woolley.

His DSO is gazetted on 31st May 1918 whilst he was still on the Special List but cant find any details.

Regards
Dave

Dave,
Thanks for update. Yes, Hay is about the most elusive soldier I've encountered in my research. Some historians have doubted his very existence; or suspect his name is merely a misprint for someone else named Haugh. In the Sanusi book I've been able to follow his activities moving from Cairo to Matruh in November 1915. And, as I mentioned earlier, he signed the Intell War Diary once or twice during the campaign. When I get back to London, I'll see if I can find a birth record (if that doesn't cost too much); also, in the same vein, a record of his death might be helpful, ie was it disease or riots or sth else. Sheffy has covered the EEF files so exhaustively that I don't hold out too much hope that the APM file is going to appear...
Regards,
Russell

Russell

Anything new come out from this as yet ?

Regards
Dave

Dave,
Sorry to have been out of touch. I'm still away from London, but I'll be back on the case (looking for more on J Hay) after 15 Sept.
Regards,
Russell

Russell

I am just finishing the "Sanusi Little War" and wanted to say publicly that I enjoyed the book tremendously. You obviously spent huge amount of time researching this and I for one am grateful having skirted around the "Sanusi War" trying to put it into context.

Simply put I would recommend it to any / all of our group interested in the Egyptian theatre in WW1.

Thanks again.

Regards
Dave

David,
Apologies. I’ve only just seen your message of 4 October. Thank you very much for the kind words about the book. Much appreciated.
Hope to get back to researching Hay shortly (and that the Aberdeen & NE Scotland Family History Society will be able to help us pin him down).
Regards,
Russell

All,
A visit to BL’s Newspaper Library at Colindale has yielded new information about James Barromew Hay. The sources were Hay’s obituaries (Aug 1919) in the local press of Aberdeen, where he was from.
1) My theory that Hay knew Turkish and had worked in the Ottoman Gendarmerie was wrong. Some 5 or 6 years before the war Hay went to Egypt to work in some unspecified commercial capacity. By 1914 he would therefore have had some knowledge of Arabic, local culture, customs, etc., and this is why the WO thought he was of interest for the Intelligence Office in Cairo.
2) According to the main obituary, after his short role in the Sanusi Campaign (up to Dec 1915) Hay was on active service in Gallipoli and Palestine. If he did go to Gallipoli, it must have been a short trip, since the evacuation was completed in early Jan 1916. As for Palestine, Hay must have been part of the EEF, and that would account for the missing two + years from Jan 1916, when we had no idea what he was doing.
3) It has occurred to me that I’ve probably misunderstood why he was suddenly promoted (sometime between Sept ’17 and July ’18) from captain / GSO 3 to lieutenant-colonel /Ass’t Provost Marshal, Egyptian Military Police. I had assumed that he was APM for the British Military Police in Egypt. But it now occurs to me that he may have got the double promotion for being seconded to the Military Police of the Egyptians. Though this may seem an obvious reading of the words “Egyptian Military Police”, I had originally assumed such a position would be part of the Egyptian Civil Service with a Egyptian/Turkish rank, for example that of “Miralai”. Any ideas? Comments?
4) I think we can now assume that Hay’s early death at age 40 was due to natural causes. (The obits would have said if he had died due to violence, riots, etc.)
5) I still have no idea why he received the DSO (L.G. 3.6.18).
I’d be very grateful for any help in adding to this new information.
Rgds,
Russell

Hi,
Here is a copy of his Medal Card

Regards Mark

it now occurs to me that he may have got the double promotion for being seconded to the Military Police of the Egyptians. Though this may seem an obvious reading of the words “Egyptian Military Police”, I had originally assumed such a position would be part of the Egyptian Civil Service with a Egyptian/Turkish rank, for example that of “Miralai”. Any ideas? Comments?

You seem to be thinking along the right lines here. This example from THE LONDON GAZETTE, 12 MAY 1916.
quote
(Graded for purposes of pay as D.A.A.G.).—
Capt. (Col., Egyptian Police) Henry
C. B. Hopkinson, C.M.G., Res. of Off. 1st
Dec. 1915.

Mark,

Yes, I’d seen the MIC, but only the front side. Interesting (on the back) that his wife Viola stayed on in Egypt for nearly two years after JBH’s death. When she went out (1917, I believe) to marry the man, her ship was torpedoed!

Rgds

Russell

Michael,

Hopkinson was head of Egyptian civil police in Alexandria before the war. He and many other British members of the Egyptian civil service joined the British Army in 1914, each with an appropriate local and temporary rank. Many like Hopkinson were quite old but this was encouraged to solve the problem of there being a shortage of British officers in Egypt at the start of the war. Hay joined up in 1914, but then moved from the British Army (apparently) to Military Police of the Egyptian Army, so there was obviously movement in both directions according to need -- and he must have been sorely needed to get the double promotion!

Interesting to compare the shortage of officers in 1914 with the sudden surplus in Egypt after Gallipoli, 15 months later.

Rgds,

Russell

Russell

Cant help but think we may get a better picture of Hay's movements by tracking Gilbert Clayton closer. Quick cursory look shows lots of synergy. Even the "missing years" could tie in with Claytons move to CPO for Allenby and the occupied area administration prior to OETA. Hays movements through Gallipoli and Claytons continued pivotal role in the EEF intelligence community all worth I think another look.

So can we tie Hays movements by trailing his original boss Gilbert Clayton ?

Exploring Clayton further may give us some clues to Hay’s time in Gallipoli. I think he may have been part of Maxwell’s visit when he met with Kitchener there prior to the start of the evacuation. Here there is alot of material to wade through. Carrying this thought process on I assuming he was one of the “seven” officers of “Cairo Branch” who under Clayton took up responsibility for Secret Service, political intelligence and counter-intelligence on Murrays merging of the intelligence service after the evacuation of Gallipoli..

Clayton broke his relationship with EEF intelligence in July 1916 on his return from UK letting go (or being replaced - depending on your point of view - of command of the Department of Military Intelligence. So the big question for me is did Hay stay with him or or move to the EEF intelligence at this time ? If he didn’t he would have merged into the EEF in June 1916 and potentially moved to Ismailia.

On the dissolution of the Cairo Branch at the end of August 1916 I am hypothesizing that Hay was one of the officers who joined the office of the High Commissioner. However I don’t think that he ended up in the Arab Bureau but stayed in one of Claytons other working areas. My current thinking is that he was at this time working for the High Commissioners office in some yet to be determined role in the Egypt Intelligence Service (see Zalewski) and was not drawn into the Arab Bureau. For me this keeps him in the frame for the Sanussi activities where you have already found him. It would also explain why we can not trace him in any of the Arab Bureau ref’s.

If he did transfer to the EEF he would potentially have returned to Cairo when Murray relocated his GHQ. Assuming he stayed with the EEF and remained with Political and counterespionage through 1917 he would most likely to have served with either XX or XXI corps Advanced Intelligence. However I cant find him there so far.

If he stayed with Clayton in the Egypt Intelligence Service he could have by the end of 1917 been serving in the pre-OETA intelligence in Claytons new role as CPO. This had responsibilities for local population, the reorganization of this intelligence group in April 1918 could explain his Egyptian Military Police transfer. I think this possible as if he had served in a combat role he would have by this time been on corps or divisional staff. Current thinking is as Clayton’s role of administrator dissolved Hay if still with him may then have transferred into regional military administration. Hence his Egyptian Military Police role. Guesswork but plausible. Timing works - this would have been around April 1918.

If any of this has merit the questions for me is what was Hay doing whilst Clayton was buried in the Hijaz affair. Given everything that has been written on this I find it difficult to believe that Hay was involved but not captured at any point. Any views ?

I don’t have a copy but I wonder if there is anything be got from Clayton’s biography ? - An Arabian Diary.” Berkeley: University of California Press, 1969.

Food for thought - be interested in your views. All very amateur land from my side but can't seem to shake this one off.

Regards
Dave

[quote name='rmcguirk' date='Jul 5 2009, 08:01 PM' post='1216852']
QUOTE

Provost Marshals in Cairo and Alexandria (Units and Formations / 14 January 2009)

Has anyone any ancestor who was a Provost Marshal in Cairo or Alexandria? My grandfather, Ernest William Smith, was a Deputy Assistant Provost Marshal Class FF in Cairo from 2.8.19, and worked for the Deputy Assistant PM in Alexandria before that, from 2.12.18. Would anyone have any diaries or letters which would throw light on what the PMs had to contend with at that time? I think there were student riots happening in Cairo.


Hi

This refers back to your original post. My Great Uncle (Frederic Snowden Hammond) fought in the Palestine campaign as a Captain then Major with the Finsbury Rifles (think he was still with this unit following his being invalided out of Gallipoli). Following the end of hostilities he was promoted Lt Colonel Essex Rgt based in Cairo. I have his war diaries from the time of his rejoining his unit in 1916 until he returned home in 1919 following his time in Cairo. I say all this from memory, as I have not read the final section of his dairies for some time. They are long and verbose, contain much extraneous material (such as catching butterflies etc), but I do remember that there was a bit about the riots in Cairo. I have been transcribing these diaries onto my computer (an on-and-off project for the last 10 years +) and have got to diary 56 out of 66 (November 1918 so far). Obviously the Cairo part is still to come!! If this could be of any interest, would be happy to help, look up, whatever.

Jim

Jim,
Sordiers' diaries are always potentionally interesting -- and for some that would include the butterfly catching. Suggest when you're ready you post greater detail of contents.
Rgds,
Russell

Dave,

Your thoughts most interesting.

(1)It hadn't occurred to me that Hay's visit to Gallipoli might have had sth to do with Maxwell going off to see Kitchener at Mudros in early Nov 1915, but, now that you mention it, that would be very possible. Hay's job in Intell was "Tripoli", ie Turks and Sanusi to the west: among the many issues Maxwell had to discuss with Kitchener was the Sanusi problem – we know that; K had a hunger for detail on the matter, so it makes sense that Hay would have gone along to provide it.

(2) It may be, as you surmise, that Hay stays with Clayton in some capacity. However, I'm still troubled by that letter by T E Lawrence giving details of who is who in Intelligence in January 1916, listing 17 names and what they do. Clayton is at the top; TEL at the bottom; no mention of J Hay. but TEL goes on to say "there are a lot of others".

Regarding Clayton's biography, I'll check it again. (I'm away next week, but week of 9 Nov I'll be visiting SOAS and they have a copy. Next update will be around then.)

On a separate tack -- Hay's personal life – I've established that his wife Viola had previously been married and was involved in a messy divorce in 1916. Viola had a son with her first husband, and I believe I have an email address for her great grandson (whom I'll try to contact when I'm back). I assume that JBH and Viola did not have offspring or that would have been mentioned in his obits. Also, Viola was still "Mrs Hay", when her son got married in 1936, so she apparently did not remarry – at least, not at an age when she might have had more children. That line of enquiry appears to be a dead end; so, also, goes any hope of finding a photo of our man. (I'm sure her first husband's family won't have one!)

Your message is full of ideas, but I'm not very knowledgeable about the EEF and east of Egypt generally, so I'll take the rest a bit at a time.

Regards,

Russell

Russell

Have tried to find some detail on Claytons assessment that Maxwell took with him but have not been able to confirm detail yet. Be interesting if we could prove that the Sanusi threat was a significant part of it. We know from Sheffy that Military and domestic intelligence grooups were at odds to whether the largest threat came from the east or west but I dont have anymore info than that. Do you have any detail ?

However both Wingate and Macmahon were also present so Hay could have been a representitive of any of the intelligence offices. So doesn't help determine Sudan vs High Commissioners office vs Military Intelligence.....

Regards
Dave

Dave,

It may be that the detail is in Clayton’s papers, but, unfortunately, they’re held in Durham. Before I go to Kew and start looking in an area I’m relatively unfamiliar with, do you know of any specific files at the National Archives that might be worth checking?

I hope to be able to look for clues in the Clayton biography (at SOAS) later in the week.

Regards,

Russell

Dave,

Have now checked Clayton's "An Arabian Diary", but I'm afraid it's of no use to us as we try to track J Hay. The diary part is actually post-war, dealing with 1925-26. There is a long Intro by someone called Robert O. Collins, but no mention of Hay, and it also has numerous errors – though these may partly be due to it having been written in the 1960s, before work by Sheffy, Jeremy Wilson, etc, and perhaps also before the release of many relevant files.

Guess we have to fall back on National Archives Kew. Initially, I'll see if I can find Intell files covering Maxwell's trip to Lemnos/Mudros to see Kitchener, early Nov 1915. (I wonder if there is any GWF member from Durham who is interested in our search for Hay and who could check Clayton's papers at the University there.)

Regards,

Russell

Russell

Shame - I was hoping to get a bit more of an insight from that. Keep looking I guess.

Regards
Dave

Hi Russell

I have been following this thread with interest. I tried a Kew search and came up the following:

FO 841 Foreign Office: Consulate, Cairo, Egypt: Court Records
Subseries within FO 841 CONSULAR COURT CASES
FO 841/182 Consular court cases

FO 841/182 A. Provost Marshall v. Michael Ellis 1919
I wonder if this case might mention any of your men.

I then did a ‘Hay’ search in the consular court case records and came up with:

FO 841 Foreign Office: Consulate, Cairo, Egypt: Court Records
Subseries within FO 841 CONSULAR COURT CASES
FO 841/104 Consular court cases

FO 841/104 James Hay v. Plevria Osman Frost 1909
FO 841/132 Corp. of Western Egypt v James Hay 1913
I wonder if this is your man in his commercial days in Egypt as mentioned in the obituary?

I tried MacDonnell as well and came with:

Division within FO Records of Conferences, Committees and Councils
FO 608 Peace Conference: British Delegation, Correspondence and Papers
FO 608/214 British delegation, correspondence and papers relating to British Africa (Political): Egypt.

FO 608/214/5 Recall of Major Macdonnell from Paris Conference to deal with political crisis in Egypt. 1919
Hope this helps

Cheers
Dominic

Russell

I am back to Jeremy Wilson who had him as the unconfirmed "5th Officer" in his "Lawrence of Arabia". Wilson refs Hay as being responsible for 'the Tripoli side of
Egypt' and I remembered you making reference to something earlier. Did this come from the same source ?

Also cross refencing Larences stated role for "the ministry of the interior". Will let you know what I find.

Regards
Dave

Dominic,

Some great finds there! I'm going to Kew today, so I'll check them out and report back.

Regards,

Russell

Dave,

In researching the Sanusi book my sources for identifying "the 5^th musketeer" were WO telegrammes in WO 33/714; GHQ GS War Diary WO 95/4360; and T E Lawrence's letters. I found that Liddell Hart (in T E Lawrence: In Arabia and After) had made an error back in the 1930s that had confounded historians ever since. He wrote:

In December, after Turkey had entered the War, it was decided to strengthen the Intelligence Service in Cairo. Newcombe was called back from France, and told that he was to go out to Egypt as assistant to Clayton. Among the officers he was to take with him were George Lloyd, Aubrey Herbert, Leonard Woolley, and Lawrence – they became known in Egypt as "the five musketeers".

The error was he didn't mention Hay and included Newcome as one of the five. But Newcombe was a professional soldier; the five musketeers were not – they were all gifted amateurs, and hence their slightly ironic title of musketeers.

I believe I can prove this with the following quotes 3 quotations from the sources :

(1) War Office (6 Nov '14): "We are receiving offers of service from various civilians who have knowledge of Turkish language and of Asia Minor generally. Please state whether a few carefully selected persons of this sort would be of service to you."

Maxwell (8 Nov '14): "Yes, a few."

War Office (16 Nov '14): The following are being sent out to you for special service:- Lieut. G Lloyd ... Lieut. C L Woolley ... Lieut. J Hay ... 2^nd Lieut. T E Lawrence.

But, of course, Aubrey Herbert, was then sent out as well.

(2) GHQ GS War Diary, entry for 20 Dec 1914: ... Five officers arrive from England are told to form nucleus Military Intelligence Dept under D of I Sudan Agency:

Capt Newcombe RE, Captains George Lloyd MP, Aubrey Herbert MP, Lieuts Hay, Lawrence Woolley.

and (3), T E Lawrence's letter to E T Leeds, 24 Dec 1914, in which he describes the work of the five new arrivals:

Newcombe - Director

Woolley - Personnel

Lloyd - Mesopotamia

Aubrey Herbert – Turkish

One Hay does the Tripoli side of Egypt

[TEL} bottle washer and office boy

Regards,

Russell

Dominic / all

I've checked the files you found for us.

FO 841/182 A. Provost Marshall v Michael Ellis 1919 -- Unfortunately, nothing to do with Hay.

FO 841/104 James Hay v. Plevria Osman Frost 1909 and FO 841/132 Corp. of Western Egypt v. James Hay 1913– Here, I am fairly sure that the James Hay in these two small claims cases is the same man, because the same lawyer was used in the two cases; and there is some evidence that he is indeed our James Hay -- namely the Plaintiff in the second case being the Corporation of the Western Desert and mention in the documents of a visit to the "oases". There is also mention in the second doc of his working for "the Agricultural Dept, Giza, Cairo". To me this sounds more like Ministry of Agriculture work than commercial. Nevertheless, if Hay, in whatever capacity, went to the western oases in his work before the war, he may have parleyed this into a qualification for Intell work in 1914 and be why he was assigned Tripoli and the western side of Egypt. Does this sound plausible, or am I making too much of pretty thin evidence?

FO 608/214/5 Recall of Major Macdonnell – Not much information in the file, but it shows that he'd been kept hanging about in Europe for a couple of months after the start of Egypt's 1919 riots; and that he got back in the spring of that year.

Re Hay again, I also went back to GHQ GS War Diary WO 95 4360 looking for some mention of Hay going to Lemnos/Mudros with Maxwell to see Kitchener in Nov 1915. Very frustrating – these are messy files and there was virtually nothing from the month in question.

In pursuit of details of Hay's family life I did get one unexpected piece of information. In summer 1916 he was back in London for at least 3 weeks. Alas, I don't yet know why he was sent back.

We're obviously inching forward. I think I've found an affordable way to get a day's research in Durham (early January), when I'll be checking Clayton & Wingate papers.

I would like to say that researching Hay would be impossible without the assistance of GWF members. Thanks to all who have helped, and please keep your ideas coming.

Regards,

Russell

Hi Russell

Glad you got some info. I think you are right about the court case files-it definitlely gives Hay some background in the right area and would be something that boosted his credentials.

I have to admire your tenacity in this research and hope you find more on your man as i am sure it will throw some interesting light on the whole intelligence story in Egypt.

Cheers
Dominic

Hi russell

I checked the passenger lists and found a couple of likely outbound trips for Hay:

Passenger: Hay, James
year of birth: unknown
Sex: M
departure year:1909
Departure port: London
Destination country: Egypt
Destination port: Port Said

Passenger: Hay, J
year of birth: unknown
Sex:
departure year:1914
Departure port: London
Destination country: Egypt
Destination port: Port Said

These appear to match his first visit to Egypt on business and his trip at the beginning of the war. I tried checking in bound lists to Britain but this is difficult without paying a fee. The transcripts of the outward trips should give ships names and dates I guess. Hope this helps and look forward to more detective work.

Cheers
Dominic

Dominic, that's brilliant! Both years fit. Hay's obits in 1919 say he had gone out 10 years earlier; and the Army Lists have him being made Temp. Lt. on 16 Nov 1914.

Your surfing skills are clearly better than mine. May I ask how one checks the passenger lists? I'm trying to find out what ship was torpedoed in 1917/18 with his future wife on-board (has relevance to his personal life story – to be explained later).

Regards,

Russell

Hi Russell

Passenger lists can be searched via the National Archives and Ancestrystarting here:
Passenger lists

As I said you get an instant transcription from the outbound from Britain lists via Ancestry but not the inbound. You then have to pay for images or transcripts with more details with either set.

Cheers
Dominic

Dominic,

Thank you for the reference. Couldn't find the lady there, despite getting the same J Hay hits as you, probably because the sailings are from the UK. Hay's trip to and from London summer 1916 wasn't on there either. Probably not many (any?) passenger ships from London to Egypt during the war. He must have sailed Egypt – Marseilles, Marseilles – Egypt. In which case, it's likely the lady would have gone across France to Marseilles also in 1917 / 18.

Regards,

Russell