Pozieres for Australians kicked off 93 years ago today. Such began a bloodbath that we had never encountered before. Gallipoli was longer but less intense, Fromelles lasted just two days and was very intense. But Pozieres and the Farm lasted 6 weeks and was very intense. 23,000 Australian men were killed or maimed in just a few square kilometres.

For an Australian population then of just 4 million it would be like over 115,000 men falling today. Imagine now about 20,000 Australian men becoming casualties every week for the next 6 weeks. Unbelievable. It is one of the fascinations I have of the Great War that the men and the country did it so willingly. Almost beyond comprehension. Then the next year Passchendaele was worse.

Kids these days have never heard of Pozieres but even when I was at school all us kids had heard of Pozieres. We associated the word "Somme" with misery.

Lest we forget.


Len

Thought provoking

Len, a very good way to emphasize the significance of what happened.In what sense? Numbers of Aussie casualties? Other....?

Robert

Robert,

The Australian casualties from 20Sep to the end of Oct 1917 in the Ypres area were 38,093. Most of the Australian infantry were withdrawn by mid October. So in just a 4 week period another 40,000 odd Aussies were dead or wounded. Equivalent to 200,000 today. It is no wonder that every town ,big or small has a large monument to these men. The carnage just beggars belief, even today. Although the Australians had a higher proportion of casualties than any other nationality it does not detract the sacrifice of any other nationality.

Len

Higher than France, or Serbia ? No, surely.

Phil.

Australia had 64.8% of its force casualties, New Zealand 58.6% , Britain 47.1%.

Britain had the highest number of troops as a percentage of the population - 11.2%, NZ - 8.9%, Australia - 6.8%

I don't have figures for any other country.

Phil

Total killed as a percentage of males aged 15-49:

Serbia 22.7
Turkey 14.8
France 13.3
Rumania 13.2
Germany 12.5
Austria 9.0 (includes Hungary)
Italy 7.4
Britain 6.3 ( Scotland 10.9!)
New Zealand 5.0
Australia 4.4
Canada 2.6

Australian fatalities, as a percentage of the military male population, were not as high as commonly believed, and were exceeded by those of the UK and New Zealand. It is true, however, that a higher proportion of Aussies who "took the field" were killed : 14.5%, compared with New Zealand's 12.4% and Britain and Ireland's 11.8%; Scotland lost an appalling 26.4%. The French lost 16.8%, the Germans 15.4%, Rumania 25%, Bulgaria 22%, Turkey 26.8%. Top of the list : Sebia with 37.1% of all men mobilised dead. These figures are from Niall Ferguson's The Pity Of War.

Phil.

Hi Phil,

Australia had 63,163 deaths out of 330,770 embarkations. This is a fatality rate of 19% - not 14.5%. I think Niall's figures would need scrutiny before I accept them. 79% of all Australian infantry became casualties.

However the point of this thread was not to get into quoting statistics but rather to highlight the colossal sacrifice of soldiers lives - in this case those of my country.

Len

Len,
The AWM figures are as follows

53993 KIA
7727 Non battle related deaths
137013 WIA
16496 Gassed
3647 POW
109 POW Deaths

As far as enlistments are concerned NZ had 120000 enlistments out of a population of approximately 1 million
In Australia the enlistments were approx 400000 out of a population of 4940000 at the beginning of 1914.

Point taken, Len...forgive me if I appear niggardly.

One fact about these losses that conveys their magnitude is that more Australians were killed or died from wounds in the Gallipoli fighting alone than the entire British battle fatalities for the whole of the Boer War, and Gallipoli cost fewer than one fifth of the Australian lives lost on the Western Front.
More Australians were killed at Pozieres than all the Union troops who were killed at Gettysburg, the greatest battle of the American Civil War.

On no account imagine that I seek to downplay the sacrifice of Australia.

Phil.

Thanks Phil,

No problems.

Len

Your thread is very thought provoking. But it is not only in Australia people would find it difficult to imagine that level of casualties now.

It seems stange to me that the knowledge of the Australian losses on the Western Front has been lost. On a guided tour of Gallipoli I went on, none of the others (all Australian or New Zealanders) had heard of the Somme.

At the risk of making a potentially un pc observation, might this reflect the huge change in the ethnic mix in Australia over the last two generations ?

Harder to reconcile in the case of New Zealand, though.

Phil.

This is an edit : I feel I should elaborate on my comment. Here in London, we have a very large Turkish and Kurdish contingent, particularly near where I live. Many of the youngsters have heard of Gallipoli - which they call "Canakale" or something like that - but none of them would have heard of the Somme. The oral tradition in these families is remarkable, and there is also the exciting and inspirational theme of Islamic triumph which they cherish. Not saying that this applies Down Under, but it might still be a pertinent observation.

Hardly any young person in Australia has heard of the Somme let alone Pozieres. It is definitely all about Gallipoli - and most young people think Australia was on its own when it invaded Turkey - not a minority player! There has been a bit of a push in recent years to highlight the Western Front and there is now a televised dawn service at Villers Bretonneux on Anzac Days.

I don't think the ethnic mix makes much difference but the hordes of Indians and Chinese swamping our country wouldn't even know what Anzac Day is.

Len

Len,
I dont think they could even pronounce it. Agree with the Villers B, wonderful service and it happens in the early arvo
here which makes easy looking.
I am getting on a bit now but can remember as a kid Anzac was quite a low key affair. Marchers - pnenty of them then
but all gone now, a few people standing at the street corners and kids riding bikes watching. Somehow in the last 20-30
years Anzac day has become the be all and end all of Australian memories of the GW. As far as I am concerned, NOT SO.
We lost at least 7 times as many men in France yet it seems to have been forgotten. Why I dont know, but I am rather
sad about that.
When I went to school it was the other way around. Anzac day was a day for the old diggers to get together and have a beer etc
and was largely ignored but rembrance day the whole school paraded and kept 2 minutes silence. In fact. the whole town shut
down for those two minutes.

Hi Len. My understanding is that Australia had 62000 dead for the war. What do you show?

It is without doubt beyond our comprehension!!

With the generation who lived through it gone we are only left with figures but that can never totally convey the true suffering and loss sustained as we never lived through it. Your post gives us something to think about what war can really inflict on a population and also that within the passing of that generation with the pain of that suffering not directly felt that it can soon become forgotten by the majority.

With the current theme over the past decade or so by a lot of historians to re-write the Great War as myth and poppycock it is good that you have tried to highlight such sacrifice. Lets hope the memoirs of those who were there are read by future generations which will help convey just a little bit of what it was like and that it shouldn't be forgotten.

Nick

G'day to all,
Regardless of the statistics, all the fallen of the Great War ( and, indeed, any war ) are frightful.
To return to the crux of Len's initial post, however, I must admit that after I return to my local pub after attending any commemerative service I am always plagued with questions like: "where have you been? why are you wearing medals? etc.
and when I inform the interregators I have to go into lengthy explanations regarding dates, place names, geographical locations and casualty figures. I am often disappointed with the depth of knowledge that Australians possess about most of the greatest feats of our forebears. I always take the time to be as informative as possible and try to end with "Lest We Forget'.
Len and/or any other members of this magnificent Forum, if you are ever in Sydney on the first Sunday after the 23,July, i.e. the commencement of the battle of Pozieres, try and make a visit to St. Columba Uniting Church at Woolharah where a commemoration service has been held under the auspices of the !st Battalion AIF and the inheritors of their history since the early 1920s. At the rear of the church is mounted a cross from the burial fields of Pozieres along with Battalion colours that have been laid up. I have just attended for my third consecutive year and find it a very uplifting experience.
If you require any further deatails please contact me via this thread or send me a PM
Regards
Pop
(Sean McManus)

Australians might not be aware of Pozieres, but one thing is very clear : the people of Pozieres are very aware of Australia. There was a BBC feature last Remembrance weekend, in which Rolf Harris played a prominent role. He visited Pozieres, and everyone in that little village was, it seemed, intent on displying tremendous enthusiasm for the Australian legend. Even the little kids' school was festooned with Australian artefacts and memorabilia, with cuddly kangaroo toys all over the place. It was a moving experience just watching it on TV.

Phil.

Remembrance is often inversely proportional to distance - if you visit the Somme, depending on where you are, the sacrifices of South Africa, Newfoundland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are brought very forcibly to mind. Australia will almost ceratinly never be forgotten in Pozieres. But the main focus remains at Galipoli for the ANZACs

We will remember them - wherever they fell.

Canada and Australia - both of them had their Great War debut within three days of each other : Canada on April 22nd 1915 at Ypres, Australia three days later at Gallipoli.

It was the event that came two years later at Vimy that defines Canada, whereas the Australian legend is grounded firmly in its first episode.

Just a random comment.

Phil.