I am have been curious for a little while about what exactly was in the orders that resulted in the digging of the graves at Fromelles. So far I have not been able to get hold of a copy of the translated text and wondered if any body knew where to find it? Its referred to alot and clearly was a key piece of evidence that resulted in the present excavations.

My particular reason is to see how likely it is that any of the 2/7th Warwickshires who did reach the German trenches were likely have been transported behind the German lines to the graves at Fromelles They were at the extreme end of the battle field away from the graves now being excavated. I've heard mention of a light railway track being used to transport bodies on a video on the CWGC web site but not sure how close this was to the tranches.

If it subsequently transpires that none of the 2/7th Warwickshire battalion are in the graves currently being excavated I do wonder what on earth happened to their bodies? Presumably no other grave sites are suspected at Fromelles?

Richard

Since I last posted a few searches on Google reveal that the officer who gave the burial order was a "Julius Ritter Von Braun". He was the officer in charge of the 21st Bavarian Regiment.

When I have then looked again at campaign map its clear that the Australians were closest to the 21st Bavarians but further along the line the 2/7th Warwickshires faced the 17th Bavarian Regiment with 16th Bavarain Regment in between.

I do wonder if any body has asked the question about what was in the archives for these two regiments concerning the burial of the dead after the battle?

How is it known for sure that Julius Ritter Von Braun's order extended to cover the 16th and 17th Bavarian regiments facing the British trenches, particularly the Warwickshires?

Also found references on this web site to photographs of the dead on railway trucks

http://www.awm.gov.au/wartime/44/article.asp

"They found references in written accounts, including the regimental history, published in 1923 by Generalmajor Julius Ritter von Braun of the Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 21 (RIR21) that had defended the centre of the line during the battle. There were photographs of the dead being carried on light railway wagons. Aerial photographs, taken before and after the battle, showed that eight pits had been dug behind the battlefront only days after the fighting. Of the eight pits, five were filled quickly, with three remaining open for the rest of the war."

Again I would ask the question does any one know of where theses photos are as they may gives clues as to whether the 2/7th Warwickshires are buried in the graves at Fromelles.

From my reading of the 2/7th Warwickshires War Diaries they were not shelled whilst in the German Trenches but facing fire from the sides so I am presuming that after the battle the 17th Bavarian Regiment would have had about 80 odd bodies from the 2/7th Warwickshires battalion to deal with.

Whats the evidence in the 17th Bavarian Archives as to what happened next?

Richard

Richard

The aerial photographs and the background to the Order are readily available from the introductory section to this report:

http://www.defence.gov.au/fromelles/files/...ellesReport.pdf

The rest of the material that you are seeking is only available in the report of Peter Barton to the Australian government that has never been released.

Mel

Many thanks for clarifying that the original documents have never been seen outside of Government circles. The GUARD report makes mention of the British dead being separated from Germans and placed on to trucks of a trench railway. My curiosity asks did this order just cover the section of trenches covered just by 21st Bavarians or the 16th and 17th Bavarians as well?

Richard

Richard,

I have some of the extracts from the Von Braun documentation, but would say that there is nothing contained within them to give you the answers for which you are searching. The Australian Government has so far held back on publishing Peter’s report, which is a pity as it makes fascinating reading.

With regard to the light railway, this was indeed used to transport British and Australian dead to Fournes for burial and, in all probability, to Pheasant Wood as well. I’ll try to find you some maps.

V.

Try here for 1916 map


http://lt1.mcmaster.ca/ww1/wrz4mp.php?grid...id=121&view

Thank you, Keith! How very useful. Am I the only one who didn’t know about this website?

V.

Thanks for posting where to see the map Keith. Its a remarkable document and helps me a lot. I've compared it with a Google map and the lay out of the modern roads pretty much matches up with this map. It may be wishful thinking on my part but I am sure you can see the outline of the British earthworks/trenches just off the Trivelet Road from the village of Fauquissart on Google.

I am particularly interested in the 2/7th Warwickshires positions- you have answered one question for me which was about the position of the German trench railway. It clearly ran parallel and close to their front line in an area marked as "Devil's Jump". If there were bodies to be collected and delivered to Pheasants Wood after the battle it was a practical proposition. Does n't necessarily follow any 2/7th Warwickshires are there but does show the practicalities.

On another point the key at the side of the map is interesting as you can match up precisely with the orders given to the 2/7th Warwickshires I have got a copy of from the National Archives.

The report on operations for the battalion Colonel on 21st says:


1st objective

Enemy's front and support trenches between Fauquisssart - Trivelet Road and the ditch running S.E from N 13 c.2.2. Its the map reference which I think ties in with where the 2/7th were supposed to go.

In the other document I have called the report on action of 19th July 1916 it says at 11am they were lined up B, C and D Company N13 c 4.3 1/2(half)

Later it says at 6pm it says the 2/7th Warwickshires reached the enemy's front line N19.a.3.5 and N 19.a.6.8.

I suppose you can with some accuracy transpose these map references if wishing to walk the battle field.

Richard

Have managed to borrow a copy of "Don't Forget Me Cobber"- (Quite expensive to buy at £47 from Amazon), the 2009 version.

Have discovered its addressed my earlier question by having an English translation of the order given by Julius Ritter Von Braun.(Order 5220)

I also found my answer to the question, what was 17th Regiment's Bavarian version of events? It too has an English translation of their account together with a useful German trench map to cross reference with. Its given me some clarity regarding the missing, having now compared it with the 2/7th Warwickshire account of what happened

Richard

Richard, As a 2/7 relative with the same doubts as you, as I have expressed before, is there any chance of a brief summary of the translation?

Chalkie.

I can try- there's quite a lot to summarise -
Richard

Richard, Please do not go to a great deal of trouble, any chance of just your conclusions.

Chalkie

Apologies for the delay - hope to post some thing more this evening. My initial view from reading the text of the 17th Bavarians report was that there was no mention of Pheasants Wood as such. I thought from reading it men from the 2/7th (thats my interpretation as they do not mention the 2/7th) escaping back to their own lines were also left in No Mans Land after the battle. So it did make me wonder if the obvious reason why missing men subsequently did not appear on any lists given to the Red Cross is that the Germans never found them.

If they then remained in No Man's land until after the war then the next obvious question to ask was what did the CWGC record and where did they subsequently re bury the unidentified?

Richard

Richard, as I’ve already stated in a number of posts, this is what I am currently working on. You and I have already touched on this subject. I could remember discussing it with you via e-mail, before your trip to Fromelles, and managed to find the relevant message:

"Leonard was posted as missing and stayed that way, which would indicate one of three things: (1) his body remained out in No-Man’s-Land until after the Armistice, was retrieved, but could not be identified and is therefore buried in one of the local cemeteries (i.e. Aubers Ridge); (2) his body remained out in No-Man’s-Land where it was shelled, therefore leaving nothing to be identified; or (3) he was buried by the Germans, but his details weren’t listed (perhaps because the disc had been missed) and the grave has not yet been found. (1) and (2) are the most likely scenarios with (3) being the most unlikely, but who knows? We have many "Warwickshire" dead, retrieved from No-Man’s-Land and buried in local cemeteries as "unknowns"."

So, the answer is probably Aubers Ridge, but knowing that doesn’t really tell us anything more.

V.

In the book there are two main sections in my view that give clues- one of the 17th Bavarians account- quite long description of the lead up to the battle and the map references can be cross referenced with a map. Surprisingly consistent with the war diaries of 2/7th, but I think the thing that bothers me with the 2/7th war diaries is that is does not make reference to men being left in no mans land, wounded or dead. It gives the impression they were killed behind German lines. The reality seems to be some were- hence the lists of names handed to the red cross, and those missing who were not notified to the red cross.- presumable not discovered by the Germans.

The key point remarked by the Germans is how bodies were left in No Man's land. It was an issue as they remark that the smell was dealt with those behind German lines by the spreading of lime. They also make the point of giving them dignified burials for those they dealt with.

Further on there is another reference to Lt Lunceschloss giving an order treat the dead with respect. I think the critical quote is a Brigade order on 24th July saying that any English dead in and behind the trenches are not to be taken to Fournes, but buried in a suitable place between the support lines and the 2nd line position.

Taken with the railway pictures of bodies being taken away, a mention of Fournes in the book(where there is a German Military Cemetery)and then not taken to Fournes there seems a variety of places to me that will obviously be further investigated long after Pheasants Wood has revealed its secrets. Its quite possible that 2/7th killed could have been taken by railway to Pheasants Wood but the book gives the impression that Fournes was a destination and other sites too between 1st and 2nd lines. I would not disagree with Victoria's conclusion as she has carried out investigations already into this.

Hope that helps

Richard

Richard, Thank you very much for this. I guess that it supports my thoughts expressed on the forum some time ago, that as the 2/7th. were at the extreme southern end of the battle, and with the comments coming out of Australia about the overwhelming majority being Australians, I should not raise too many hopes about recovering and giving a named burial to Absolom Goode.
I do hope however that if this is so we will be invited to visit Fromelles in July to lay a wreath..."not found but not forgotten." This has been a very important part of our life for about 9 months now. I think that we might need some sort of closure.

Chalkie

My heart tells me to speculate, my head tells me to wait until more facts emerge.