Guys
I am researching 37th Division (in particular 63 Bde) assaults in and around Greenland Hill 23-28th April 1917 (between the river scarpe and Arleux). I have nearly completeted the work from the britsh side of the wire. I am now trying to find out which German units were on the other side. I have never researched German units before!!! Can anyone point me in the right direction. Is there a german equivalent of the order of battle series? Any help would be much appreciated.
Regards
Dave
Full Version: German Units around Rouex / Fampoux 24th April 1917
Great War Forum > Documents, photos, art > Look-up, Photo and Document requests > Documents & Records Requests/Look Ups
Hello Dave,
There are a number of ways to discover the identity of the German units opposite your group on that date. If found, there is a good chance to locate a regimental account that also mentions the events of a particular day or period of days. There are records of German troop movements, orders of battle, casualties etc.
The biggest problem is trying to match a specific division with your search. Your first step should include looking through any documents relating to the action that could include intelligence reports on the opposing units, prisoner extracts, etc. I would also look through the British Official History to see if this event is somehow covered. This series often identifies the German units in opposition and sometimes quotes the post-war regimental histories.
Perhaps the best way to go about having other forum members help is to post a good map of the area in question and identify the nearest place names of towns and villages. Trench maps would be good as well as long as they show a reference point of a town, city or village. This can be used to track down German units by using period maps from the German side. Even if a different unit is found to occupy this sector prior to your date we can often trace the following units through records mentioning the relieving units, etc.
While you have mentioned the towns near your area a map would be better with the specific area marked off.
Recently I was asked to identify a German regiment for a specific trench coordinate. With some luck and the use of the maps I was able to trace it down to a particular unit after finding the neighboring regimental sector and accounts that identified the unit holding the line in question.
While not impossible it can be difficult to match the opposing division. The best thing is to supply any maps, information etc. that might prove useful and to have patience as this can be time consuming research.
Ralph
There are a number of ways to discover the identity of the German units opposite your group on that date. If found, there is a good chance to locate a regimental account that also mentions the events of a particular day or period of days. There are records of German troop movements, orders of battle, casualties etc.
The biggest problem is trying to match a specific division with your search. Your first step should include looking through any documents relating to the action that could include intelligence reports on the opposing units, prisoner extracts, etc. I would also look through the British Official History to see if this event is somehow covered. This series often identifies the German units in opposition and sometimes quotes the post-war regimental histories.
Perhaps the best way to go about having other forum members help is to post a good map of the area in question and identify the nearest place names of towns and villages. Trench maps would be good as well as long as they show a reference point of a town, city or village. This can be used to track down German units by using period maps from the German side. Even if a different unit is found to occupy this sector prior to your date we can often trace the following units through records mentioning the relieving units, etc.
While you have mentioned the towns near your area a map would be better with the specific area marked off.
Recently I was asked to identify a German regiment for a specific trench coordinate. With some luck and the use of the maps I was able to trace it down to a particular unit after finding the neighboring regimental sector and accounts that identified the unit holding the line in question.
While not impossible it can be difficult to match the opposing division. The best thing is to supply any maps, information etc. that might prove useful and to have patience as this can be time consuming research.
Ralph
[quote name='Ralph J. Whitehead' date='Sep 6 2009, 02:06 PM' post='1259365']
Hello Dave,
There are a number of ways to discover the identity of the German units opposite your group on that date. If found, there is a good chance to locate a regimental account that also mentions the events of a particular day or period of days. There are records of German troop movements, orders of battle, casualties etc.
The biggest problem is trying to match a specific division with your search. Your first step should include looking through any documents relating to the action that could include intelligence reports on the opposing units, prisoner extracts, etc. I would also look through the British Official History to see if this event is somehow covered. This series often identifies the German units in opposition and sometimes quotes the post-war regimental histories.
Perhaps the best way to go about having other forum members help is to post a good map of the area in question and identify the nearest place names of towns and villages. Trench maps would be good as well as long as they show a reference point of a town, city or village. This can be used to track down German units by using period maps from the German side. Even if a different unit is found to occupy this sector prior to your date we can often trace the following units through records mentioning the relieving units, etc.
While you have mentioned the towns near your area a map would be better with the specific area marked off.
Ralph
Thanks for the kind response. I have checked the british offical history and the unit war diaries and no german units are mentioned for this period. There is no 37 Division history and nothing in 63 Bde diary. The only map I have is from 10 Royal Fus diary (111 Bde) which i cannot attach as it is too large (746Kb). The areas I am interested in are:
23/24th April
Honey Trench (51bNW4 Fampoux) Map reference H 11 b
Chilli Avenue & Trench [H 12 b, d] (51bNW4 Fampoux) Map reference H 6 b, d, 12 b, 17 a
28th April
Cuba Trench (51bNW2 Oppy/ 4 Fampoux) I 1 a, c, 7 a, b, d
Between Square Wood and Weak Trench (51bNW2 Oppy/ 4 Fampoux) I 2 d, d
Any help in identifying german units in any these areas would be much appreciated. Thanks once again
Regards
Dave
Hello Dave,
There are a number of ways to discover the identity of the German units opposite your group on that date. If found, there is a good chance to locate a regimental account that also mentions the events of a particular day or period of days. There are records of German troop movements, orders of battle, casualties etc.
The biggest problem is trying to match a specific division with your search. Your first step should include looking through any documents relating to the action that could include intelligence reports on the opposing units, prisoner extracts, etc. I would also look through the British Official History to see if this event is somehow covered. This series often identifies the German units in opposition and sometimes quotes the post-war regimental histories.
Perhaps the best way to go about having other forum members help is to post a good map of the area in question and identify the nearest place names of towns and villages. Trench maps would be good as well as long as they show a reference point of a town, city or village. This can be used to track down German units by using period maps from the German side. Even if a different unit is found to occupy this sector prior to your date we can often trace the following units through records mentioning the relieving units, etc.
While you have mentioned the towns near your area a map would be better with the specific area marked off.
Ralph
Thanks for the kind response. I have checked the british offical history and the unit war diaries and no german units are mentioned for this period. There is no 37 Division history and nothing in 63 Bde diary. The only map I have is from 10 Royal Fus diary (111 Bde) which i cannot attach as it is too large (746Kb). The areas I am interested in are:
23/24th April
Honey Trench (51bNW4 Fampoux) Map reference H 11 b
Chilli Avenue & Trench [H 12 b, d] (51bNW4 Fampoux) Map reference H 6 b, d, 12 b, 17 a
28th April
Cuba Trench (51bNW2 Oppy/ 4 Fampoux) I 1 a, c, 7 a, b, d
Between Square Wood and Weak Trench (51bNW2 Oppy/ 4 Fampoux) I 2 d, d
Any help in identifying german units in any these areas would be much appreciated. Thanks once again
Regards
Dave
Hello Dave,
Thanks for the update. I am glad you checked the sources already as that has helped, if only to eliminate them as a possible source.
Can you reduce the image to the 100kb limit? I have German maps but no British ones and therefore cannot identify the locations mentioned in your post. I will see what I can find with the details to date.
Ralph
Thanks for the update. I am glad you checked the sources already as that has helped, if only to eliminate them as a possible source.
Can you reduce the image to the 100kb limit? I have German maps but no British ones and therefore cannot identify the locations mentioned in your post. I will see what I can find with the details to date.
Ralph
QUOTE (Ralph J. Whitehead @ Sep 6 2009, 08:41 PM) 
Hello Dave,
Thanks for the update. I am glad you checked the sources already as that has helped, if only to eliminate them as a possible source.
Can you reduce the image to the 100kb limit? I have German maps but no British ones and therefore cannot identify the locations mentioned in your post. I will see what I can find with the details to date.
Ralph
Thanks for the update. I am glad you checked the sources already as that has helped, if only to eliminate them as a possible source.
Can you reduce the image to the 100kb limit? I have German maps but no British ones and therefore cannot identify the locations mentioned in your post. I will see what I can find with the details to date.
Ralph
Ralph
I have tried to reduce the file size but its a national archive pdf. I'd be happy to email it to you if thats ok and thanks very much for the help.
Regards
Dave
David,
From what I can tell from my sources the area around Arleux that I believe you refer to was being held by Fusilier Regiment 73 of the 111th Division. The neighboring regiment was IR 76. IR 164 was nearby. The details seem to show Fus. Regt. 73 being overrun and rolled up thereby exposing the flank of IR 76 that was also rolld up and a large number of prisoners were taken. This would be for the 28th and from what I can tell the same units were defending the area on 24 April definitely and most likely 23 April as well.
Ralph
From what I can tell from my sources the area around Arleux that I believe you refer to was being held by Fusilier Regiment 73 of the 111th Division. The neighboring regiment was IR 76. IR 164 was nearby. The details seem to show Fus. Regt. 73 being overrun and rolled up thereby exposing the flank of IR 76 that was also rolld up and a large number of prisoners were taken. This would be for the 28th and from what I can tell the same units were defending the area on 24 April definitely and most likely 23 April as well.
Ralph
QUOTE (Ralph J. Whitehead @ Sep 6 2009, 09:48 PM)
David,
From what I can tell from my sources the area around Arleux that I believe you refer to was being held by Fusilier Regiment 73 of the 111th Division. The neighboring regiment was IR 76. IR 164 was nearby. The details seem to show Fus. Regt. 73 being overrun and rolled up thereby exposing the flank of IR 76 that was also rolld up and a large number of prisoners were taken. This would be for the 28th and from what I can tell the same units were defending the area on 24 April definitely and most likely 23 April as well.
Ralph
From what I can tell from my sources the area around Arleux that I believe you refer to was being held by Fusilier Regiment 73 of the 111th Division. The neighboring regiment was IR 76. IR 164 was nearby. The details seem to show Fus. Regt. 73 being overrun and rolled up thereby exposing the flank of IR 76 that was also rolld up and a large number of prisoners were taken. This would be for the 28th and from what I can tell the same units were defending the area on 24 April definitely and most likely 23 April as well.
Ralph
Ralph
Thanks very much for all the help it is very much appreciated.
Regards
Dave
Dave
Things have strayed a bit north here. Dave, you are asking about Greenland Hill and the 37th Division. Although they took part in what is called "The Battle of Arleux" on the 28th April the name is misleading. Arleux is north of Oppy and was attacked by Canadians on the 28th (against the German 111th Division as described above). Your men were further south. On the 23rd in the area from the Scarpe to Gavrelle was the 18th Division, the 17th Division to their north towards Oppy. In reserve were 199th, 221st, 185th, and 208th divisions from south to north. As far as I can glean 63rd Brigade attacked 90th Regt of 17th Division, completely destroying one of its battalions. 185th Division was ordered to retake Gavrelle (taken by 63rd Division) and 2 battalions of 28th Res Regt duly attacked but were stopped on the outskirts of Gavrelle by units of both 63rd and 37th Divisions.
On the 28th the 185th Regt and 25th Regt of 208th Division was opposite the 37th. It was 3 of 208th Division's battalion staffs that the 37th drove out of Hollow Copse on their way to Fresnes. The counter attack that caused the breakthrough to fail was by a battalion of the 1st Guards Reserve Division along with a renewed attack by a battalion of 25th Regt.
I will have a look through Osterschlacht bei Arras and see if I can get any more information. It is a period I have not worked through as yet so be patient with me, it takes me a bit longer than reading an English text!
Jim
Things have strayed a bit north here. Dave, you are asking about Greenland Hill and the 37th Division. Although they took part in what is called "The Battle of Arleux" on the 28th April the name is misleading. Arleux is north of Oppy and was attacked by Canadians on the 28th (against the German 111th Division as described above). Your men were further south. On the 23rd in the area from the Scarpe to Gavrelle was the 18th Division, the 17th Division to their north towards Oppy. In reserve were 199th, 221st, 185th, and 208th divisions from south to north. As far as I can glean 63rd Brigade attacked 90th Regt of 17th Division, completely destroying one of its battalions. 185th Division was ordered to retake Gavrelle (taken by 63rd Division) and 2 battalions of 28th Res Regt duly attacked but were stopped on the outskirts of Gavrelle by units of both 63rd and 37th Divisions.
On the 28th the 185th Regt and 25th Regt of 208th Division was opposite the 37th. It was 3 of 208th Division's battalion staffs that the 37th drove out of Hollow Copse on their way to Fresnes. The counter attack that caused the breakthrough to fail was by a battalion of the 1st Guards Reserve Division along with a renewed attack by a battalion of 25th Regt.
I will have a look through Osterschlacht bei Arras and see if I can get any more information. It is a period I have not worked through as yet so be patient with me, it takes me a bit longer than reading an English text!
Jim
QUOTE (Jim Smithson @ Sep 7 2009, 08:24 PM)
Dave
Things have strayed a bit north here. Dave, you are asking about Greenland Hill and the 37th Division. Although they took part in what is called "The Battle of Arleux" on the 28th April the name is misleading. Arleux is north of Oppy and was attacked by Canadians on the 28th (against the German 111th Division as described above). Your men were further south. On the 23rd in the area from the Scarpe to Gavrelle was the 18th Division, the 17th Division to their north towards Oppy. In reserve were 199th, 221st, 185th, and 208th divisions from south to north. As far as I can glean 63rd Brigade attacked 90th Regt of 17th Division, completely destroying one of its battalions. 185th Division was ordered to retake Gavrelle (taken by 63rd Division) and 2 battalions of 28th Res Regt duly attacked but were stopped on the outskirts of Gavrelle by units of both 63rd and 37th Divisions.
On the 28th the 185th Regt and 25th Regt of 208th Division was opposite the 37th. It was 3 of 208th Division's battalion staffs that the 37th drove out of Hollow Copse on their way to Fresnes. The counter attack that caused the breakthrough to fail was by a battalion of the 1st Guards Reserve Division along with a renewed attack by a battalion of 25th Regt.
I will have a look through Osterschlacht bei Arras and see if I can get any more information. It is a period I have not worked through as yet so be patient with me, it takes me a bit longer than reading an English text!
Jim
Things have strayed a bit north here. Dave, you are asking about Greenland Hill and the 37th Division. Although they took part in what is called "The Battle of Arleux" on the 28th April the name is misleading. Arleux is north of Oppy and was attacked by Canadians on the 28th (against the German 111th Division as described above). Your men were further south. On the 23rd in the area from the Scarpe to Gavrelle was the 18th Division, the 17th Division to their north towards Oppy. In reserve were 199th, 221st, 185th, and 208th divisions from south to north. As far as I can glean 63rd Brigade attacked 90th Regt of 17th Division, completely destroying one of its battalions. 185th Division was ordered to retake Gavrelle (taken by 63rd Division) and 2 battalions of 28th Res Regt duly attacked but were stopped on the outskirts of Gavrelle by units of both 63rd and 37th Divisions.
On the 28th the 185th Regt and 25th Regt of 208th Division was opposite the 37th. It was 3 of 208th Division's battalion staffs that the 37th drove out of Hollow Copse on their way to Fresnes. The counter attack that caused the breakthrough to fail was by a battalion of the 1st Guards Reserve Division along with a renewed attack by a battalion of 25th Regt.
I will have a look through Osterschlacht bei Arras and see if I can get any more information. It is a period I have not worked through as yet so be patient with me, it takes me a bit longer than reading an English text!
Jim
Jim
Thanks very much for the help its is much appreciated. I know the title Battle of Arleux is misleading. Your correct my units were around fampoux and Roeux trying to capture Greenland Hill. Isolated sections overan there intended objectives on the 28th and got as far as Weak trench near square wood, but they couldnt hold it. I have researched the 37th Division and 63 Bde actions on these dates. The main british unit I am interested in is the 10th Y & L Regiment. Thanks once again
Regards
Dave
Hi Dave;
Jim is correct in the units quoted, they are also named in Military Operations France and Belgium 1917 Volume 1.
Rather than isolated units heading out to Weak Trench as you mentioned, it was in fact the bulk of 63rd Brigade that went, with only a small party behind at or about Cuthbert Trench.
The Brigade advanced up to Railway Copse on the outskirts of Fresnes before turning back after being counter attacked there. What was left of the Brigade, and here figures vary, either succumbed to enemy/Friendly fire in this area, was taken prisoner, or made it back to British lines.
The Official History stated 125 men were taken prisoner, other accounts claim nearly all either made it back or were lost !
I'm completing some research on the action and if you give me a coupleof weeks may very well have something more for you.
Regards
PL
Jim is correct in the units quoted, they are also named in Military Operations France and Belgium 1917 Volume 1.
Rather than isolated units heading out to Weak Trench as you mentioned, it was in fact the bulk of 63rd Brigade that went, with only a small party behind at or about Cuthbert Trench.
The Brigade advanced up to Railway Copse on the outskirts of Fresnes before turning back after being counter attacked there. What was left of the Brigade, and here figures vary, either succumbed to enemy/Friendly fire in this area, was taken prisoner, or made it back to British lines.
The Official History stated 125 men were taken prisoner, other accounts claim nearly all either made it back or were lost !
I'm completing some research on the action and if you give me a coupleof weeks may very well have something more for you.
Regards
PL
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