Dear all

I am currently researching the two Shove brothers, Herbert and Ralph, who served in the Great War (a middle brother Gerald was a conscientious objector so likely sources lie elsewhere). I will post something on Ralph (who served in the Royal Field Artillery) to the appropriate other forum, but here I am hoping to pick the collective brain about Herbert.


Click to view attachment


I have been in touch with the RN Submarine Museum and have a copy of his service record, so I know about his postings. However, I would appreciate any help on how I can fill out some of the details behind the rather bald list of facts that I have. For instance, is it possible to see the ship's logs of the submarines that Herbert commanded (A8, C2, E29 and K3)? Do submarine flotillas have the equivalent of a unit war diary? Are list members aware of any other sources I might profitably consult? Very broad questions, I know, but any help would be most gratefully received.

Warmest regards

Charles

You may already have this bit of biographical info;


Herbert Shove was a Distributist, journalist, and Catholic Land Association Secretary. Born in Faversham, Kent, England, in the Canterbury parish, he lived as a child with his farming family on Queen Court Farm, in Ospringe. Shove joined the British Navy and served, as a Lieutenant Commander, as commander of Royal Navy Submarines C-2 (1915–1916) and E-29 (1915–1922) during World War I. During the latter assignment he was received into the Catholic Church by a Dominican Naval Chaplain. He was called up again during World War II for service organizing the defenses of the Port of London, and was promoted to Captain. He was later transferred to the Gold Coast where he suffered severely from the climate, such that he had to return to England where, shortly thereafter he died. He was recipient of the Distinguished Service Order and the Order of the British Empire.

During the inter-war years, Shove lived at Hallett’s Farm at Ditchling, where he worked alongside the others in the village community of craftsmen and artisans effectively founded by Hilary Pepler and Eric Gill. There, Shove was especially well-known for his “illicit still”! Somewhat of an ideal Distributist, he was considered an authority on such varied arts as silversmithing – which he learned from fellow Ditchling resident craftsman Dunstan Prudan – beekeeping, farming, and distilling. After the foundation of the Distributist League (specifically entitled the “League for the Defense of Liberty Through the Distribution of Property”), Shove collaborated with other well-known Distributists such as Hilaire Belloc and G. K. Chesterton.

He devoted much of his mental energy to economic theory, the best expression of which can be found in his excellent book on the history of trade and manufacturing, The Fairy Ring of Commerce, which was published in 1930 by the Birmingham Branch of the Distributist League. According to Robbins, he and George Maxwell, a fellow Ditchling craftsman and Distributist persuaded Shove to commit to paper his engaging thesis on “the close and inevitable association between Industrialism and soil erosion with general exhaustion.” The book also discusses the rise of the wage system out of the cottage industries of rural England, stemming from the changes in England, going back to the Reformation, for the profit of the textile industries. It is by far the most thorough and scholarly treatment of the subject to come out of the Distributist circle, and the 1,000 copies printed were sold out, with a modest return coming back to author, financial guarantors, and the Birmingham branch: a modest success for the first and only foray by the English Distributists into full-length book publishing.

As an amateur farmer, Shove also collaborated with land-movement activists and Distributists like K. L. Kenrick, Fr. Vincent McNabb, and Harold Robbins; he served as Chairman of the South of England Catholic Land Association. As a senior spokesman for the aims of the land movement, he contributed an essay to its “manifesto,” Flee to the Fields, entitled “The Rise and Fall of Industrialism,” which was later printed in the American Review in the United States.

Fr. Brocard Sewell said that because of his beard Shove looked very much like William Morris. Records suggest that he died in hospital in 1950, at Mayday Hospital, Surrey.

Looks like you would need to visit Kew to view the submarine logs.

Eg - E29 here;

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...p;CATID=4735524


K3 here

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...p;CATID=4740271

Etc etc

IPT

Hi Charles,

apart from the logbooks you have to look for the reports of proceedings of the relevant Flotillas, but you will not find those for A 8 and C 2 (so just the logbooks in this case).

For E 29 during Shove's command (07.1915 to 04.1917) the following TNA-files re. HMS "Maidstone" you have to look:

ADM 137/2068 (1915)
ADM 137/2069 (01.-06.1916)
ADM 137/2070 (07.-12.1916)
ADM 137/2071 (01.-06.1917)

For K 3 period you also will not find any reports of proceedings from her XIIth Flotilla, as far as I know you might 1, 2 or 3 patrol reports within ADM 137/2075 ("Titania" and "Lucia", 1915 - 1918).

So for K 3 you are also limited on her logbooks

Cheers
Oliver

Not the specific details you were after, Charles, but here's his obituary from The Times (article 24 Dec 1943, p.7). Captain Herbert William SHOVE, D.S.O., O.B.E., R.N. (retired), died 5 Dec 1943 at the Royal Naval Auxiliary Hospital, age 57. According to his CWGC entry, he is buried at Bristol (Arnos Vale) Cemetery.

Charles, find here award of DSO to Lt.Cdr Shove for submarine service, also my little knowledge of his RN career ;

SHOVE Herbert W N/E Lt.Cdr. RN 82O024 S/M C2, E.29, K.3
N/E 02.11.17 Gazetted
In Submarines 1916 - 1917 DSO
For long and arduous service in command of an overseas submarine; he has made over 20 cruises in enemy waters. It is understood that his claim to have sunk a German T.B.D., off the mouth of the Ems on 14.02.16, is not substantiated, though he is confident himself and a telegram of Their Lordships' approbation of the conduct of officers and men in "E.29" was received. When in "E.29", he was frequently engaged with the enemy.

SHOVE Herbert W.
A.8. 22. 2.11. ONYX.
C.2. 15.10.12. THAMES.

Regards Sadsac

Very many thanks to all for their illuminating and helpful replies.

Sadsac: Thank you for the citation. In its commemorative booklet to the fallen of the village, the Ditchling (Sussex) Museum says his DSO was for taking E29 into the Straits of Marmara, but I couldn't find any reference to the submarine operating in that theatre, so the citation makes more sense.

Martin: Thank you for the obituary. I am trying to track down the 'Personalism' reference but with no luck so far! I have seen his grave: he is buried in 'Sailors' Corner' in Arnos Vale, which makes him considerably easier to find than some of the other CWGC headstones which are scattered across the cemetery and in some cases buried in the undergrowth.

Oliver: Thank you for your useful suggestions on the logbooks. I will follow this up! I also found your other posting some years ago on this forum about an engagement with an unidentified UBoat on 18 October 1916.

IPT: Thank you, as well, for the log information. A visit to Kew seems required! I have a fair amount of material on his inter-war distributist career, which is nicely summarised by that biography, although the death details are wrong.

Any further information or suggestions would, of course, be most deeply appreciated.

Warmest regards

Charles

OK Charles, pleased to have been of some little help. Further on E29, here is another award to her crew ;

WEBSTER John F N/E Lt. RNR 82O033 S/M E.29, G.13
N/E 02.11.17 Gazetted
In Submarines 1916 - 1917 Mentioned in Despatches
For long and arduous services in submarines ; he has been 186 days on patrol during 27 cruises of 24,000 miles. Was in action with the enemy in "E.29", and in "G.13" when an enemy submarine was sunk.

Sadsac

Thank you, Sadsac. I was up at Kew this week - first visit, very rewarding - following up some of the files you all suggested, so thank you all very much. Back next week!

I did notice that the E29 logs I had time to consult were written up by Lieutenant Webster.

I also took a look at Shove's cadet grades, passing out of HMS Britannia in 1902: top of his class, with 2196 out of a possible 2400!

As well as taking first prize for study subjects and winning the grand aggregate prize (as you mentioned), he also took second prize in French.